PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[summersm343]

Seems to me like he's going to partner with someone. Not sure he could tackle this on his own. Let's be patient and wait to see what happens. The article mentions a partnership, so I gotta believe this is the direction it's heading. I'm sure nothing is concrete though, so nothing for sure can be mentioned.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
I hope they don't hold the land for a flip that can last many years. They have reported revenue as a real estate brokerage firm of less than 5 million; doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy of a real CMX-5 project every coming to fruition.

I wonder why a big player didn't jump on the land when it went up for sale. Seems like a prime piece of real estate to develop and all.

Random thought... But since this is a top location that can command top rent dollars, I wonder if Related (bigtime NYC developer) would ever enter the Philadelphia market for a parcel like this. They do work in NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago, LA, SF.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Hm, well he has a lot of enthusiasm, but sounds like his background is more involved with smaller scale projects. I just hope he can deliver on a 30 story high rise relatively quickly.

enthusiasm isn't the word for it - he thinks construction will begin in 8-12 months. that's downright delusional. if he had a developer to partner with today, it would take months for an architect to put together a proposal, then submit for permit which would take who knows how long...

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

enthusiasm isn't the word for it - he thinks construction will begin in 8-12 months. that's downright delusional. if he had a developer to partner with today, it would take months for an architect to put together a proposal, then submit for permit which would take who knows how long...

Yeah, it almost seemed like he was trying to sell and hype up the location in the article. That’s the first thing that struck me. Hope I’m wrong but new construction overall is expected to start slowing this year. Costs and financing are tough hurdles. I’m betting he’ll flip it.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Random thought... But since this is a top location that can command top rent dollars, I wonder if Related (bigtime NYC developer) would ever enter the Philadelphia market for a parcel like this. They do work in NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago, LA, SF.

Sure...it's a possibility if they think there's a demand for such a project and they can get a decent ROI. They would get professional services as part of the process to develop the parcel from soups to nuts.

Nothing stopped SLC from doing that, and they weren't NYC developers.

[skyhigh07]

Good article about the arena and Chinatown’s opposition to it. I’m starting to get the feeling it may not happen after all. These opposition groups are frankly coming across as unreasonable and selfish. Might as well just build a by right residential tower there instead which will probably fuel more gentrification of the area.

But as the first wave of opposition showed, there may be literally nothing the team can do to make its arena coexist with a thriving Chinatown.

https://www.bisnow.com/philadelphia/news...an-chinatown-fear-no-negotiations-117188

[nemesisinphilly]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Good article about the arena and Chinatown’s opposition to it. I’m starting to get the feeling it may not happen after all. These opposition groups are frankly coming across as unreasonable and selfish. Might as well just build a by right residential tower there instead which will probably fuel more gentrification of the area.



https://www.bisnow.com/philadelphia/news...an-chinatown-fear-no-negotiations-117188

Does anyone know what actual variances etc are needed from the city to build other than striking Filbert St? Bad PR is whatever but if they don't require any zoning variances and can get around the Filbert St issue I don't see why they wouldn't just move forward.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

Does anyone know what actual variances etc are needed from the city to build other than striking Filbert St? Bad PR is whatever but if they don't require any zoning variances and can get around the Filbert St issue I don't see why they wouldn't just move forward.

That’s what I was wondering. Apparently, it all depends on if Squilla is willing to craft some kind of special legislation in order for it to move forward.

“Councilmember Mark Squilla, whose District 1 encompasses the arena site and Chinatown, is one who is listening. Any arena at the proposed site would require special legislation from Philadelphia City Council to move forward, and the Philly tradition of councilmanic prerogative means Squilla is effectively the gatekeeper for the project.“

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

That’s what I was wondering. Apparently, it all depends on if Squilla is willing to craft some kind of special legislation in order for it to move forward.

“Councilmember Mark Squilla, whose District 1 encompasses the arena site and Chinatown, is one who is listening. Any arena at the proposed site would require special legislation from Philadelphia City Council to move forward, and the Philly tradition of councilmanic prerogative means Squilla is effectively the gatekeeper for the project.“

You have to be f**king kidding me. One councilman gets to decide if the entire city of Philadelphia should gain an arena in center city that benefits the entire region. Clearly the Sixers knew this going in and I can't see why they would propose this if they didn't have a path forward with Squilla. I just can't believe how stupid that is.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

You have to be f**king kidding me. One councilman gets to decide if the entire city of Philadelphia should gain an arena in center city that benefits the entire region. Clearly the Sixers knew this going in and I can't see why they would propose this if they didn't have a path forward with Squilla. I just can't believe how stupid that is.

Yeah, and it sounds like he’ll ultimately defer to “the community” when making his final decision. Chinatown may be winning this one but I think they’ll just end screwing themselves in the end like the NIMBYs did with the St. Laurentius debacle.

If the arena doesn’t happen, I predict PREIT will quickly move forward with their plan to build by right residential towers on top of the Gallery. The urban mall is a dying concept and I suspect they’re looking for a relatively quick pivot. Since I believe they could move ahead with the plan by right, Chinatown wouldn’t have any bargaining chips. With the new towers, the area would be flooded with new residents and services that aren’t necessarily amenable to the culture of Chinatown which equals rapid gentrification.

The opposition groups are operating under the false assumption that the Capitol One Arena somehow singularly destroyed all of DC’s Chinatown with gentrification. The area would have been gentrified with or without the arena. It’s just blocks from Union Station and The White House. There were already several museums within the area and new apartment and office buildings were well underway. It’s prime real estate - that’s what really killed DC’s Chinatown.

At least the 76ers are making concessions to help preserve Chinatown by supporting their business and giving in on some of their demands. Future by right developers probably won’t care as much. This was actually a point made by Adelman early on.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

If the arena doesn’t happen, I predict PREIT will quickly move forward with their plan to build by right residential towers on top of the Gallery. The urban mall is a dying concept and I suspect they’re looking for a relatively quick pivot. Since I believe they could move ahead with the plan by right, Chinatown wouldn’t have any bargaining chips. With the new towers, the area would be flooded with new residents and services that aren’t necessarily amenable to the culture of Chinatown which equals rapid gentrification.

How long has PREIT owned these properties? In this whole time, they could have built residential towers here and they haven't. We're talking about billions of dollars here - PREIT isn't going to do anything rash just to "stick it" to the Chinatown NIMBYs. No, if this project doesn't happen, Market East will continue to tread water until the next big idea comes along (for the same NIMBYs to oppose).

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by McBane

How long has PREIT owned these properties? In this whole time, they could have built residential towers here and they haven't. We're talking about billions of dollars here - PREIT isn't going to do anything rash just to "stick it" to the Chinatown NIMBYs. No, if this project doesn't happen, Market East will continue to tread water until the next big idea comes along (for the same NIMBYs to oppose).

I don’t think they’ll do it to “stick it to Chinatown NIMBYs”. They want and need to keep up with market conditions. If I recall correctly, the first phase was the renovation of the mall which they completed around 2018. Second phase was to be be the tower residential components, but obviously 2020 happened so I imagine that changed things a bit.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yeah, and it sounds like he’ll ultimately defer to “the community” when making his final decision. Chinatown may be winning this one but I think they’ll just end screwing themselves in the end like the NIMBYs did with the St. Laurentius debacle.

If the arena doesn’t happen, I predict PREIT will quickly move forward with their plan to build by right residential towers on top of the Gallery. The urban mall is a dying concept and I suspect they’re looking for a relatively quick pivot. Since I believe they could move ahead with the plan by right, Chinatown wouldn’t have any bargaining chips. With the new towers, the area would be flooded with new residents and services that aren’t necessarily amenable to the culture of Chinatown which equals rapid gentrification.

The opposition groups are operating under the false assumption that the Capitol One Arena somehow singularly destroyed all of DC’s Chinatown with gentrification. The area would have been gentrified with or without the arena. It’s just blocks from Union Station and The White House. There were already several museums within the area and new apartment and office buildings were well underway. It’s prime real estate - that’s what really killed DC’s Chinatown.

At least the 76ers are making concessions to help preserve Chinatown by supporting their business and giving in on some of their demands. Future by right developers probably won’t care as much. This was actually a point made by Adelman early on.

I can’t read that article because of the paywall. Is there a quote from Squilla in it?

This article has some quotes from him and is from today: https://www.crossingbroad.com/2023/01/it...proposal-and-community-concerns.html?amp

Other than the author reading the tea leaves of Squilla’s statement, it seems like he’s letting the process play out for optics and to see what happens within the community. This leaves him plenty of room to say he’s satisfied with the engagement done by the team and introducing the bill.

[SEFTA]

76 Place!


Is there an example of an arena attracting new development to the area?

I would prefer it as lab space. It would be a great place for lab space
with the towers built above as planned.

Maybe Jefferson Hospital.
With the towers above
as planned

retail ground floor

[3rd&Brown]

This conversation is exhausting.

I will say this however. I am old enough to have distinct memories of how all the naysayers said Barclays Center would destroy downtown Brooklyn and all the neighborhoods around it.

Of course, the opposite has occurred. Not only has it not destroyed downtown Brooklyn but is has sort of sewed all of the neighborhoods around it together. Before Barclays, Atlantic Avenue was a big wide psychological moat. Now it serves as a sort of town square.

The arena will be built somewhere in Center City. But keep prognosticating ad naseum.

[nemesisinphilly]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yeah, and it sounds like he’ll ultimately defer to “the community” when making his final decision. Chinatown may be winning this one but I think they’ll just end screwing themselves in the end like the NIMBYs did with the St. Laurentius debacle.

If the arena doesn’t happen, I predict PREIT will quickly move forward with their plan to build by right residential towers on top of the Gallery. The urban mall is a dying concept and I suspect they’re looking for a relatively quick pivot. Since I believe they could move ahead with the plan by right, Chinatown wouldn’t have any bargaining chips. With the new towers, the area would be flooded with new residents and services that aren’t necessarily amenable to the culture of Chinatown which equals rapid gentrification.

The opposition groups are operating under the false assumption that the Capitol One Arena somehow singularly destroyed all of DC’s Chinatown with gentrification. The area would have been gentrified with or without the arena. It’s just blocks from Union Station and The White House. There were already several museums within the area and new apartment and office buildings were well underway. It’s prime real estate - that’s what really killed DC’s Chinatown.

At least the 76ers are making concessions to help preserve Chinatown by supporting their business and giving in on some of their demands. Future by right developers probably won’t care as much. This was actually a point made by Adelman early on.

I don't think Squilla will want to deal with the heat that comes as the person being solely responsible for the Sixers moving to Camden so I see this moving forward.

[mcgrath618]

You want it to happen? If you live in Squilla’s district, write an email or a letter in support of it. Hell, even if you don’t, write a letter or an email. He’s like, the only council member that actually responds.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

I can’t read that article because of the paywall. Is there a quote from Squilla in it?

This article has some quotes from him and is from today: https://www.crossingbroad.com/2023/01/it...proposal-and-community-concerns.html?amp

Other than the author reading the tea leaves of Squilla’s statement, it seems like he’s letting the process play out for optics and to see what happens within the community. This leaves him plenty of room to say he’s satisfied with the engagement done by the team and introducing the bill.

He would need some local support to introduce the bill. There is literally nothing in it for him to alienate an entire neighborhood just to make the Sixers worth more money. This went from being something critical to market east to now being called essential for the entire city and/or region- people need to get a grip. I'm sure there are many who aren't nearly as energized about the project.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

I don't think Squilla will want to deal with the heat that comes as the person being solely responsible for the Sixers moving to Camden so I see this moving forward.

when did the Sixers say that was on the table? I think they specifically said they are not looking to leave the city.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

when did the Sixers say that was on the table? I think they specifically said they are not looking to leave the city.

One of the reasons why people in your camp have the opinions that you do, is because you in effect think their choices are limited.

The Sixers don't owe you visibility to all of their considerations.

I say f*ck around and find out. Fishtowners thought they could force the hand of the initial developer of St Laurentius and look what it got them.