Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[yaletown_fella]

This article does a great job of explaining how kitchens/kitchen layouts have gone to shit in the Toronto condo market :

https://torontorealtyblog.com/blog/much-ado-about-condo-kitchens/

If I buy a condo it will almost certainly be built before 2012. Anything after is a rip off unless you're a multi millionaire hunting for a penthouse.

[casper]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

This article does a great job of explaining how kitchens/kitchen layouts have gone to shit in the Toronto condo market :

https://torontorealtyblog.com/blog/much-ado-about-condo-kitchens/

If I buy a condo it will almost certainly be built before 2012. Anything after is a rip off unless you're a multi millionaire hunting for a penthouse.

The article ends with the buyer saying "I don't care because well I don't cook. I eat out or live off uber eats."

I hope that is represented of people who claim to be struggling to find a place to live or pay or mortgage. Like all of their previous seniors at that stage of life where you have you first mortgage during those first few year you usually have to give up eating out every night and that vacation to Mexico.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

This article does a great job of explaining how kitchens/kitchen layouts have gone to shit in the Toronto condo market :

https://torontorealtyblog.com/blog/much-ado-about-condo-kitchens/

If I buy a condo it will almost certainly be built before 2012. Anything after is a rip off unless you're a multi millionaire hunting for a penthouse.

Condos have become smaller in general, so no surprise that kitchens have shrunk too. Older buildings are almost always more spacious and tend to have better layouts, as they were actually intended to be sold to people rather than investors.

The author of that article seems to take particular issue with the layout of linear kitchen designs though, which I don't agree with. Having cooked in - and designed - many kitchens, there are of course right and wrong ways to design a kitchen, but the basic layout options - ie. linear, L-shaped, U-shaped, galley, etc. - are moreso a matter of preference. Functionally, they can all work. I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that appliances have shrunk - it was kind of an odd case in older condos where they have the same kind of appliances that a suburban family home would. Having a 30-36" fridge for 1-2 people for example is moreso a waste of space, IMO.

Originally Posted by casper

The article ends with the buyer saying "I don't care because well I don't cook. I eat out or live off uber eats."

I hope that is represented of people who claim to be struggling to find a place to live or pay or mortgage. Like all of their previous seniors at that stage of life where you have you first mortgage during those first few year you usually have to give up eating out every night and that vacation to Mexico.

Back to some new variation of that old "if only young people just didn't buy so much avocado toast they could afford a house" trope I see.

[casper]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Condos have become smaller in general, so no surprise that kitchens have shrunk too. Older buildings are almost always more spacious and tend to have better layouts, as they were actually intended to be sold to people rather than investors.

The author of that article seems to take particular issue with the layout of linear kitchen designs though, which I don't agree with. Having cooked in - and designed - many kitchens, there are of course right and wrong ways to design a kitchen, but the basic layout options - ie. linear, L-shaped, U-shaped, galley, etc. - are moreso a matter of preference. Functionally, they can all work. I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that appliances have shrunk - it was kind of an odd case in older condos where they have the same kind of appliances that a suburban family home would. Having a 30-36" fridge for 1-2 people for example is moreso a waste of space, IMO.






Back to some new variation of that old "if only young people just didn't buy so much avocado toast they could afford a house" trope I see.

I am ok with avocado toast made at home. Especially if you can get a good deal on avocados at Costco.

TrueNorth linked to a redit thread of people complaining about mortgages had the same issue with "older people". The person complaining that with the mortgage payment going up they had to let the maid go and may have to reduce their consumption of alcohol. I am sympathetic to those that are legitimately struggling to make mortgage payments if they are in the state after cutting back on the creature comforts.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Condos have become smaller in general, so no surprise that kitchens have shrunk too. Older buildings are almost always more spacious and tend to have better layouts, as they were actually intended to be sold to people rather than investors.

The author of that article seems to take particular issue with the layout of linear kitchen designs though, which I don't agree with. Having cooked in - and designed - many kitchens, there are of course right and wrong ways to design a kitchen, but the basic layout options - ie. linear, L-shaped, U-shaped, galley, etc. - are moreso a matter of preference. Functionally, they can all work. I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that appliances have shrunk - it was kind of an odd case in older condos where they have the same kind of appliances that a suburban family home would. Having a 30-36" fridge for 1-2 people for example is moreso a waste of space, IMO.

Back to some new variation of that old "if only young people just didn't buy so much avocado toast they could afford a house" trope I see.

I don't see how a full size fridge is a waste of space. It's a huge benefit. The kitchen is the heart of the home for people who cook and entertain. So is ample counter space.

In a country with ample land and space like Canada, wasted space is only possible in detached SFH.

If you live in a high rise you shouldnt be worried about wasted space. We will never be Paris or Tokyo.

[Coldrsx]

What continues to blow my mind (as I am currently trying to sell a 712sqft 1bdrm in Downtown Edmonton) is that you can get ~900sqft, 2 + 2 + UG parking in a concrete high-rise from the last 10 yrs smack in the middle of the core on the best urban street for $275-325,000 right now. It's insane.

Beautiful, expansive brick and beam lofts, 400k.

Rentable 600sqft bachelors for 150-200k

Edmonton perplexes me.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

What continues to blow my mind (as I am currently trying to sell a 712sqft 1bdrm in Downtown Edmonton) is that you can get ~900sqft, 2 + 2 + UG parking in a concrete high-rise from the last 10 yrs smack in the middle of the core on the best urban street for $275-325,000 right now. It's insane.

Beautiful, expansive brick and beam lofts, 400k.

Rentable 600sqft bachelors for 150-200k

Edmonton perplexes me.

If I had to move to Edmonton I would buy a large house on a big lot, not a downtown condo.

[Coldrsx]

And if I had to move to the Montreal I'd live above the Super Sx Club next to the poutinery.

To each their own.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

And if I had to move to the Montreal I'd live above the Super Sx Club next to the poutinery.

To each their own.

Super Sex Club no more, fire. sorry

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

What continues to blow my mind (as I am currently trying to sell a 712sqft 1bdrm in Downtown Edmonton) is that you can get ~900sqft, 2 + 2 + UG parking in a concrete high-rise from the last 10 yrs smack in the middle of the core on the best urban street for $275-325,000 right now. It's insane.

Beautiful, expansive brick and beam lofts, 400k.

Rentable 600sqft bachelors for 150-200k

Edmonton perplexes me.

Crazy expensive prices for mere condos.

I agree that I’d rather get a detached SFH with its own land, if I moved to Edmonton (or anywhere in the Prairies). I’d endure a condo in Manhattan or Paris.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by lio45

Crazy expensive prices for mere condos.

I agree that I’d rather get a detached SFH with its own land, if I moved to Edmonton (or anywhere in the Prairies). I’d endure a condo in Manhattan or Paris.

Expensive? These are $250-350 sqft.

Certainly there are many suburban options for single, duplex, row that offer 1500-2200 sqft for 350-500k which makes the 'urban living' value prop less attractive, but it's still insane how cheap things are and how little movement there is in the central condo market.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by lio45

Crazy expensive prices for mere condos.

I agree that I’d rather get a detached SFH with its own land, if I moved to Edmonton (or anywhere in the Prairies). I’d endure a condo in Manhattan or Paris.

Does that necessarily mean that you approve of our environmentally destructive, gas eating, sprawling, hedonistic, dehumanizing, North American suburban lifestyle formats, or do you think there are other options not explored, developed, or readily available to us? Just a thought.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by lio45

Crazy expensive prices for mere condos.

I agree that I’d rather get a detached SFH with its own land, if I moved to Edmonton (or anywhere in the Prairies). I’d endure a condo in Manhattan or Paris.

That’s definitely my most innate aversion. If my house isn’t attached on both sides, and my front door doesn’t open to the sidewalk, I feel like I’m camping in the middle of nowhere. I can’t shake it, anywhere. I’d even feel a little… off… in the corner house of a rowhouse block with three exposed sides lol

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

That’s definitely my most innate aversion. If my house isn’t attached on both sides, and my front door doesn’t open to the sidewalk, I feel like I’m camping in the middle of nowhere. I can’t shake it, anywhere. I’d even feel a little… off… in the corner house of a rowhouse block with three exposed sides lol

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I can't see anyone living in this - speculators & Airbnb hosts are obviously the target demographic. It's for use as physical Bitcoin moreso than an actual place to live.

This has been the worst part of this bubble. Watching builders cater to the specuvestors. I used to think two bedrooms in a 1000 ft2 condo was about the minimum for a 2bdrm. Now I see they put 3 bdrms and a "den" (really a wall indentation) in that same space.

The really crappy part is watching builders start to do the same kind of catering to specuvestors with actual houses the last few years.

I hope a lot of the speculators lose their shirts. It's the only way to get sanity back. When they have to actually sell to end users, we'll start seeing better floor plans again.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Fair, but I swear I’m making sense. I mean like this: https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25078818/36-william-street-stjohns There’s the front, back, and left side exposed. I don’t like that.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Fair, but I swear I’m making sense. I mean like this: https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25078818/36-william-street-stjohns There’s the front, back, and left side exposed. I don’t like that.

One thing I find interesting about these St. John's real-estate listings—at least the ones in the inner city—is that the whole awful trend of beige/grey everything imposed by realtors, home stagers and the HGTV economy doesn't seem to have hit the city as hard as elsewhere. There looks to be a lot more individual eccentricity, interesting interiors, and colour. The mainland trend, and indeed the North American trend, seems to be to make every surface, even floors and exposed wood, a monochromatic palette of whites and grays.

[SignalHillHiker]

It definitely does exist here but it’s fortunately about a year or two out of style so we’re not seeing much of it anymore (though some, probably most, condos, including the core, including ones not even finished yet, are doing it).

This is l, I think, the current direction that generic design is taking in the city, core and suburbs. This is what the middle-aged soccer moms who don’t give it much thought will insist upon over the next couple years, and vaguely what most new builds are starting to look like to start:

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25136290/38-gower-street-st-johns

Though, especially in the core, it won’t look like this for long. There’s definitely more colour than not overall so I expect whoever buys this won’t leave it so plain.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The mainland trend, and indeed the North American trend, seems to be to make every surface, even floors and exposed wood, a monochromatic palette of whites and grays.

I'm sure you know the reason for that. It broadens the market you can appeal to, as it allows the buyer to customize easier, one room at a time. It's a similar reason why you don't see a lot of pink, purple or yellow cars at dealerships.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I can't see anyone living in this - speculators & Airbnb hosts are obviously the target demographic. It's for use as physical Bitcoin moreso than an actual place to live.

Yep. This is why I have increasingly little faith in the "just remove restrictions and let them build!" approach (even if I think removing some restrictions is good). My only hope is that - as was mentioned above - enough investors will lose everything and units will have to be targeted towards people who actually want to live in them.

In the meantime though, how many thousands of barely livable units are on the market in our big cities? It seems like a lot of wasted potential.

A similar process goes on for new SFHs on the urban fringe (at least in the GTA) which drives up prices as well. Homes are changing hands multiple times under various developer shells / numbered corporations before reaching the public market. It sounded far-fetched until I was told this by people in the industry, along with the unsettling fact that pretty much all future greenfield land is basically owned by 4 or 5 guys at the end of the day.