Scotiabank Centre

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Corker

I too would love to see a complete re-build of the Scotiabank Centre into a larger modern facility.

To re-iterate Keith's point earlier - the former WTCC was sold in 2016 to George Armoyan for $13.5 million, an unfortunate lack of foresight by HRM, the Province and Events East.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...labi-kousoulis-halifax-armoyan-1.3712191

The convention part of the facility is being used for the Lighthouse Arts Centre, which is nice. The Examiner has a great breakdown of their proposed $10.5 million capital investment for that renovation (item #4 in the article) from a few years ago:
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/uncategor...s-playing-halifax-council-like-a-fiddle/

This would suggest there won't be a demolition of the WTCC in the near term. I am certain Armoyan would be happy to sell the building back, for a healthy profit, but in doing so the city and Province also bear some responsibility to find a new home for the arts organization (hello mid-sized performing arts centre!).

Regarding view planes, I suspect a new facility could go higher based on the fact the CIBC and TD buildings are directly below it. However, an expansion over Carmichael Street would be a no-go as it would obstruct the view from the Town Clock to the harbour.

I do think the current location is best. If an alternative downtown location were needed I would say:
- The ship has sailed on Cogswell, that re-development is too far along to change directions now.
- There was talk some time ago about the Casino moving elsewhere. That doesn't make sense to me but if they did, that location may be wide enough and expanded out into the harbour a bit farther to accomodate a new arena.
- The only other location I see large enough downtown is the train tracks and parking lot by Pier 21-22 (or perhaps the Superstore & parking lot & tracks). Transportation wise that is getting too deep into the south end... unless it was done in conjunction with a new south end 3rd crossing and commuter rail terminal (I can dream).

Someone mentioned on here the block where the Trade Mart building is on the corner of Brunswick and Cogswell could also be an option. I think it could be if some of the adjacent Cogswell lands could be used. Looking at the Cogswell redevelopment plan this could be possible.

[Empire]

I know it would be difficult to obtain the property, but the southern end of the dockyard parking lot would be nice. It would be a great bookend for the Cogswell redevelopment. Run a commuter rail line into the arena and have a transit hub as part of the complex.

Maybe trade the Scotiabank Centre for the new site. Scotiabank Centre is assessed at $18,798,300 so there would be considerable adjustment in trade value. The Scotiabank Centre could then become a military training / event facility. It could have a modern role of an Armoury c/w a major military museum. Citadel Armoury sounds like a good name?

Ref. Google Maps:

HMC Dockyard:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/2242+V...d6c0fd982!8m2!3d44.6549297!4d-63.5817702

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Empire

I know it would be difficult to obtain the property, but the southern end of the dockyard parking lot would be nice. It would be a great bookend for the Cogswell redevelopment.

Maybe trade the Scotiabank Centre for the new site. Scotiabank Centre is assessed at $18,798,300 so there would be considerable adjustment in trade value. The Scotiabank Centre could then become a military training / event facility. It could have a modern role of an Armoury c/w a major military museum. Citadel Armoury sounds like a good name?

Ref. Google Maps:

HMC Dockyard:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/2242+V...d6c0fd982!8m2!3d44.6549297!4d-63.5817702

Difficult is an understatement. DND refuses for force protection reasons to build an elevated car parkade. As it is now RCN members are almost through half of their careers before they even become eligible to apply for a Dockyard parking spot. The greatest advocate for an efficient transit system comes from DND as that is what they are used to in Ottawa. Home to over 25% of DND's workforce.

[Halifax12]

Here's a link to the WTCC Expansion and Metro Centre II Feasibility Study they released in 2007. Pretty cool to see all the potential arena sites they had proposed for a 15,000+ rink to replace the metro centre. Looking back, they picked the wrong alternative to build a new convention centre instead.
https://www.eventseast.com/sites/default..._Feasibility_Study_Volume_1_May_2007.pdf

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Halifax12

Here's a link to the WTCC Expansion and Metro Centre II Feasibility Study they released in 2007. Pretty cool to see all the potential arena sites they had proposed for a 15,000+ rink to replace the metro centre. Looking back, they picked the wrong alternative to build a new convention centre instead.
https://www.eventseast.com/sites/default..._Feasibility_Study_Volume_1_May_2007.pdf

Thank you for unearthing this report. I had not seen it previously and was unaware it had been completed. Based upon the extensive work done by the consultants it seems that no arena site other than Cogswell was really much of a contender. And of course the majority of the work was focused on rehabbing the old poorly-designed WTCC into a more functional convention center, which is now off the table entirely. But the options outlined in section 7 for a replacement Metro Centre site were useful if only for their assessment of other possible locations.

Perhaps the most interesting takeaway for me was that (at least at the time) there was really not much demand locally for an arena with 15K to 17K capacity other than entertainment acts on tour that were doing large arenas. While that is still valid I suppose, the need for that kind of capacity for hockey or other sporting events seemed very limited, unless you are dealing with infrequent major events like what just happened here with the World Juniors. I did appreciate the commentary in the report about the unwelcoming and almost shabby appearance of the arena on the outside, especially on the north and south facades. It did not seem to discuss the shortcomings of the concourses, supporting facilities such as washrooms and concessions, or circulation within the building very much. Even references to compliance with ADA requirements for the disabled was somewhat glossed over, which in the case of the existing building is questionable at best.

If you wanted to add some seating I was able to see how that would be possible at the south end of the building by restructuring the roof/exterior wall at that end and building an upper seating bowl, although that might be of questionable value most of the time. You could probably do the same at the north end as well, perhaps even easier since there are no skyboxes there to deal with, but that end is typically behind the stage when the building is used for concerts, so it may not be of much value to do so. Is it worth doing that for a few thousand seats that will likely be empty most of the time? Hard to say.

I will say that the rendering of the seating area of the MTS Centre in Winnipeg was certainly what the designers of the MC should have had in mind when building the original MC structure here in 1978. That is a very attractive setup, assuming as-built looks like that. As for what the designers of the old WTCC were thinking when drafting the plans for that facility, I have no idea. It was a poorly thought-out space when new and the need for a proper CC was apparent almost from day one. The never-ending arguments about the need for a new CC really did not need to occur since it should have been obvious.

[Reesor]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Thank you for unearthing this report. I had not seen it previously and was unaware it had been completed. Based upon the extensive work done by the consultants it seems that no arena site other than Cogswell was really much of a contender. And of course the majority of the work was focused on rehabbing the old poorly-designed WTCC into a more functional convention center, which is now off the table entirely. But the options outlined in section 7 for a replacement Metro Centre site were useful if only for their assessment of other possible locations.

Perhaps the most interesting takeaway for me was that (at least at the time) there was really not much demand locally for an arena with 15K to 17K capacity other than entertainment acts on tour that were doing large arenas. While that is still valid I suppose, the need for that kind of capacity for hockey or other sporting events seemed very limited, unless you are dealing with infrequent major events like what just happened here with the World Juniors. I did appreciate the commentary in the report about the unwelcoming and almost shabby appearance of the arena on the outside, especially on the north and south facades. It did not seem to discuss the shortcomings of the concourses, supporting facilities such as washrooms and concessions, or circulation within the building very much. Even references to compliance with ADA requirements for the disabled was somewhat glossed over, which in the case of the existing building is questionable at best.

If you wanted to add some seating I was able to see how that would be possible at the south end of the building by restructuring the roof/exterior wall at that end and building an upper seating bowl, although that might be of questionable value most of the time. You could probably do the same at the north end as well, perhaps even easier since there are no skyboxes there to deal with, but that end is typically behind the stage when the building is used for concerts, so it may not be of much value to do so. Is it worth doing that for a few thousand seats that will likely be empty most of the time? Hard to say.

I will say that the rendering of the seating area of the MTS Centre in Winnipeg was certainly what the designers of the MC should have had in mind when building the original MC structure here in 1978. That is a very attractive setup, assuming as-built looks like that. As for what the designers of the old WTCC were thinking when drafting the plans for that facility, I have no idea. It was a poorly thought-out space when new and the need for a proper CC was apparent almost from day one. The never-ending arguments about the need for a new CC really did not need to occur since it should have been obvious.

You're right about the bold. The Scotiabank Center doesn't sell out right now to spend the incredible amount of money needed for a new arena.

I know though that some people tend to stay away when there are big crowds specifically at that venue. There's no room to move in the concourse. Washrooms are largely inaccessible and the lines are very long. People with mobility issues find it difficult to get up the upper bowl. Some people simply don't want to deal with sitting in the 8th row and higher of the upper bowl because of the sight-lines. You don't feel like you're a part of the whole atmosphere of the building when you're up there.

A new 15,000 seat arena wouldn't just help increase revenue during large events like the World Juniors. I believe it would help grow the current tenants like the Mooseheads and the Thunderbirds. A modern arena with suitable concourses, washroom facilities and escalators would make the whole experience better for those with mobility issues (and everyone for that matter). A modern arena with proper skyboxes built in would allow everyone to have a great view of the playing area, and feel like they were a part of the event. I know people that refuse to shell out tickets to events if they have to sit in the upper bowl right now.

I think a big key to this argument will be the Thunderbirds NLL team. They were really doing well before Covid. If they flourish and put 9000+ in the arena consistently, I think that in combination with the other reasons mentioned would start a legitimate conversation about the feasibility of a new downtown arena. The Scotiabank Center just spent millions on new seats, new washrooms, new concessions, and a new score clock. It isn't going anywhere any time in the near future. But hopefully there will be justification for a new arena within the next decade. The goal in my mind would be to host the world juniors 15-20 years from now in a new arena. And by that time, I'll probably need those new accessibility improvements.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Halifax12

Here's a link to the WTCC Expansion and Metro Centre II Feasibility Study they released in 2007. Pretty cool to see all the potential arena sites they had proposed for a 15,000+ rink to replace the metro centre. Looking back, they picked the wrong alternative to build a new convention centre instead.
https://www.eventseast.com/sites/default..._Feasibility_Study_Volume_1_May_2007.pdf

Thank you for finding and posting this report. It is clear that HRM operates in the moment with both the Trade Centre and Metro Centre sized for conditions at the time. Both were built without future growth being considered. The report highlights how redevelopment on site would be difficult. The main site is restricted by viewplanes 2, 3 & 5. There is some uncertainty about the bearing capacity of the main footings. It would seem that any reconfiguring of the existing building has more limitations than net gain for a huge unknown cost.

Section 7 identifies potential sites for MCII and in my opinion the Trademart building site is now ideal for a 16,500 seat arena. The report advises that this site would be a “tight fit” and indeed it would have been with Barrington St. forming a restricted boundary on the eastern side. However, with the new configuration of the Cogswell St. Interchange Barrington St. moves further to the east opening up ample room for the required footprint. This site offers a great advantage in that the surrounding area is built up commercially, has the best transportation connections downtown, has a pedway connecting the site to four hotels and a 1700 space parking garage. Additionally, there will potentially be a host of bars and restaurants at the doorstep in the Cogswell redevelopment. A new signature hotel with direct connection from Cogswell would be great asset. If the Trademart building were to be demolished it would remove a very unsightly building and would be a positive move for a new and expanded downtown.

Trademart site - Google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6518608,-63.5782217,194m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6527344,...2GwilvGLoqayQDqgIlU8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Empire

Section 7 identifies potential sites for MCII and in my opinion the Trademart building site is now ideal for a 16,500 seat arena. The report advises that this site would be a “tight fit” and indeed it would have been with Barrington St. forming a restricted boundary on the eastern side. However, with the new configuration of the Cogswell St. Interchange Barrington St. moves further to the east opening up ample room for the required footprint. This site offers a great advantage in that the surrounding area is built up commercially, has the best transportation connections downtown, has a pedway connecting the site to four hotels and a 1700 space parking garage. Additionally, there will potentially be a host of bars and restaurants at the doorstep in the Cogswell redevelopment. A new signature hotel with direct connection from Cogswell would be great asset. If the Trademart building were to be demolished it would remove a very unsightly building and would be a positive move for a new and expanded downtown.

Couldn't agree more, on all points.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Reesor

he Scotiabank Center just spent millions on new seats, new washrooms, new concessions, and a new score clock. It isn't going anywhere any time in the near future. But hopefully there will be justification for a new arena within the next decade. The goal in my mind would be to host the world juniors 15-20 years from now in a new arena. And by that time, I'll probably need those new accessibility improvements.

Planning for a new arena, just like planning for public transit requires a very long time horizon. If you see a need for a new arena in 15-20 years, then by God the time to be forming committees, looking at options and finding funding sources is RIGHT NOW. These thing don't get built overnight. The logistics and planning are Herculean. I would say the Avenir Centre in Moncton took 10 years front to back, and that is with a situation where the arena had only a couple of choices where to be built, and disrupting activities at the existing arena was not a consideration. The situation in Halifax will be far more complex.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Empire

Thank you for finding and posting this report. It is clear that HRM operates in the moment with both the Trade Centre and Metro Centre sized for conditions at the time. Both were built without future growth being considered. The report highlights how redevelopment on site would be difficult. The main site is restricted by viewplanes 2, 3 & 5. There is some uncertainty about the bearing capacity of the main footings. It would seem that any reconfiguring of the existing building has more limitations than net gain for a huge unknown cost.

Section 7 identifies potential sites for MCII and in my opinion the Trademart building site is now ideal for a 16,500 seat arena. The report advises that this site would be a “tight fit” and indeed it would have been with Barrington St. forming a restricted boundary on the eastern side. However, with the new configuration of the Cogswell St. Interchange Barrington St. moves further to the east opening up ample room for the required footprint. This site offers a great advantage in that the surrounding area is built up commercially, has the best transportation connections downtown, has a pedway connecting the site to four hotels and a 1700 space parking garage. Additionally, there will potentially be a host of bars and restaurants at the doorstep in the Cogswell redevelopment. A new signature hotel with direct connection from Cogswell would be great asset. If the Trademart building were to be demolished it would remove a very unsightly building and would be a positive move for a new and expanded downtown.

Trademart site - Google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6518608,-63.5782217,194m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6527344,...2GwilvGLoqayQDqgIlU8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Very much agree!

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Planning for a new arena, just like planning for public transit requires a very long time horizon. If you see a need for a new arena in 15-20 years, then by God the time to be forming committees, looking at options and finding funding sources is RIGHT NOW. These thing don't get built overnight. The logistics and planning are Herculean. I would say the Avenir Centre in Moncton took 10 years front to back, and that is with a situation where the arena had only a couple of choices where to be built, and disrupting activities at the existing arena was not a consideration. The situation in Halifax will be far more complex.

The biggest lesson learned from the construction of the former Trade Centre and Metro Centre is that without a long term vision there will be a heavy price to pay in the future. Hopefully this isn't repeated.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Planning for a new arena, just like planning for public transit requires a very long time horizon. If you see a need for a new arena in 15-20 years, then by God the time to be forming committees, looking at options and finding funding sources is RIGHT NOW. These thing don't get built overnight. The logistics and planning are Herculean. I would say the Avenir Centre in Moncton took 10 years front to back, and that is with a situation where the arena had only a couple of choices where to be built, and disrupting activities at the existing arena was not a consideration. The situation in Halifax will be far more complex.

Very true, if the Trade Mart site was a consideration they would need to secure a small piece of the Cogswell lands soon to ensure it will be available for a future arena for example.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Very true, if the Trade Mart site was a consideration they would need to secure a small piece of the Cogswell lands soon to ensure it will be available for a future arena for example.

Well, perhaps first they might want to secure the Trade Mart site.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, perhaps first they might want to secure the Trade Mart site.

Yes, true enough haha

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Empire

Thank you for finding and posting this report. It is clear that HRM operates in the moment with both the Trade Centre and Metro Centre sized for conditions at the time. Both were built without future growth being considered. The report highlights how redevelopment on site would be difficult. The main site is restricted by viewplanes 2, 3 & 5. There is some uncertainty about the bearing capacity of the main footings. It would seem that any reconfiguring of the existing building has more limitations than net gain for a huge unknown cost.

Section 7 identifies potential sites for MCII and in my opinion the Trademart building site is now ideal for a 16,500 seat arena. The report advises that this site would be a “tight fit” and indeed it would have been with Barrington St. forming a restricted boundary on the eastern side. However, with the new configuration of the Cogswell St. Interchange Barrington St. moves further to the east opening up ample room for the required footprint. This site offers a great advantage in that the surrounding area is built up commercially, has the best transportation connections downtown, has a pedway connecting the site to four hotels and a 1700 space parking garage. Additionally, there will potentially be a host of bars and restaurants at the doorstep in the Cogswell redevelopment. A new signature hotel with direct connection from Cogswell would be great asset. If the Trademart building were to be demolished it would remove a very unsightly building and would be a positive move for a new and expanded downtown.

Trademart site - Google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6518608,-63.5782217,194m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6527344,...2GwilvGLoqayQDqgIlU8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Not sure, but I think the Trade Mart building is provincially owned. That being the case, a land swap for a site in the Cogswell redevelopment is prime. A new site in Cogswell could offer an opportunity to build a signature office tower and amalgamate many government offices.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Empire

Not sure, but I think the Trade Mart building is provincially owned. That being the case, a land swap for a site in the Cogswell redevelopment is prime. A new site in Cogswell could offer an opportunity to build a signature office tower and amalgamate many government offices.

It is not provincially owned. The province is a major tenant (the massive Dept of Education bureaucracy works out of there - oddly enough because a past Minister wanted the office to all be on one floor instead of in several floors of an office building, so you have all these cubes and internal walls on a huge single floor plate) and it is a Crombie property.

[q12]

Sounds like Scotiabank Centre will be getting more upgrades, with the new owners after the Sam Simon group out of Michigan bought the team from Bobby Smith.

Interview with new ownership group today on City News 95.7 (26min mark of hour 1):
https://halifax.citynews.ca/local-news/p...&utm_campaign=Content&utm_medium=Twitter

New Owners sound very positive on spending their own money taking the Halifax Mooseheads and Scotiabank Centre to the next level.

I know the owners of the Halifax Thunderbirds have also talked about upgrades and expansion of Scotiabank Centre.

[dreamcamera]

Originally Posted by q12

Sounds like Scotiabank Centre will be getting more upgrades, with the new owners after the Sam Simon group out of Michigan bought the team from Bobby Smith.

Interview with new ownership group today on City News 95.7 (26min mark of hour 1):
https://halifax.citynews.ca/local-news/p...&utm_campaign=Content&utm_medium=Twitter

New Owners sound very positive on spending their own money taking the Halifax Mooseheads and Scotiabank Centre to the next level.

I know the owners of the Halifax Thunderbirds have also talked about upgrades and expansion of Scotiabank Centre.

I'm not sure what more they can do with the building as it is, and I fear the more money sunk into it, the further away a new building will be. The Scotiabank sponsorship added $5 million in upgrades already. The Simons talked about adding a "wow-factor", upgrading concessions and making better use of some spaces around the arena.

IMO the main problems with the building are small concourses and a horribly-designed upper bowl situation due to the Skybox construction in the 1990s. Those issues don't get addressed until something new is built.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by dreamcamera

I'm not sure what more they can do with the building as it is, and I fear the more money sunk into it, the further away a new building will be. The Scotiabank sponsorship added $5 million in upgrades already. The Simons talked about adding a "wow-factor", upgrading concessions and making better use of some spaces around the arena.

IMO the main problems with the building are small concourses and a horribly-designed upper bowl situation due to the Skybox construction in the 1990s. Those issues don't get addressed until something new is built.

I agree on your point about the badly-compromised upper bowl due to the ill-advised skyboxes. I wonder what revenue those generate? I assume they are all sold/occupied.

[dreamcamera]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I agree on your point about the badly-compromised upper bowl due to the ill-advised skyboxes. I wonder what revenue those generate? I assume they are all sold/occupied.

I think most of them are occupied for the season or rented per event. Quite a few are corporate. Scotiabank Centre website claims they "start" at $800.00 for a Mooseheads season, which I can't imagine is true at that price, gotta be way higher.

I believe they were added for the 2000 Memorial Cup event (could be very wrong), but I can't see why the idea of blocking existing seating with new premium options was acceptable. Revenue over function I guess. For example, for Shania Twain (one of only two concerts this venue has on the books for 2023 thus far, the other being Chris De Burgh, pretty bleak) the upper bowl is $150.00 each with the obstructed seats at $110.00. So that's $110.00 to see part of the stage.