Kelowna Construction

[giallo]

Originally Posted by djmk

660 Quayside Drive in New West will have 3 levels of underground parking under a river

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228543

Building underground with a high water table is totally possible (Shanghai is built on a massive delta, and has a huge underground subway system, and many underground malls all over the city), but it can be expensive. If Kelowna city council allows developers to build their parking above ground, they're going to do it 100% of the time. It's way cheaper.

[dc!]

Originally Posted by The Great Scaper

That's a terrible looking podium.

renders have it looking a decent bit better than blank concrete at least

[VantageHD]

Oh that's not bad. If there wasn't commercial at street level then different story.

[JayMi]

Originally Posted by KelownaResident

Kelowna does have a high water table but that's not the reason why this podium is ugly as it is (and spans the entire length of a block on main street). It's ugly because city planners have endorsed their form and character and council has approved them. In fact there is a project that is several blocks closer to the waterfront which will have 2 stories underground parkade I believe. In downtown Vancouver many projects build parking several stories underground. Mission Group just chooses the cheap, uncreative, fast profit designs. Tower over above ground parking podium. And then they say we need more housing, approve please. Concrete housing whose units cost significantly more than wood frame housing and serve little to bring affordable units except some crappy dream that more units on the market will trickle down to the average renter. Nope, it actually only normalizes extravagant living that no regular worker in Kelowna can afford. And the CoK bends over backwards for them. That's too bad they've put this thing in downtown main street. It's like if Godzilla came and took a dump in downtown. Only bad thing is that unlike Godzilla's dump which would decompose quickly, this is likely there to remain for who knows, many several hundreds of years or more.

I'm fine with building high. Just don't build them so darn ugly.

It's probably worth holding judgement on what is being labelled as an "ugly podium" long before it's even complete. Ugly podiums are what often kills/or delays a lot of the towers from getting to council. It's also why there is a limit of four storeys, or 16m, so that giant parkade structures aren't being approved. Additionally there are limits on the length a podium can be prior to it being broken up to help reduce the massing. Then there are several design guidelines so it's not just a concrete parking structure but does provide some limited visual interest.

Limiting podium height has already forced developers to start going below grade to meet the parking requirements to achieve the heights we are starting to see. UBCO going four levels below grade, Westcorp (if ever built) three levels, Water Street by the parking, Ellis Parc, FSH all one level. If developers want to maximize height in the zones the need to push below grade.

Every street in all urban centre's have a requirement of either commercial or residential at grade depending on the the street classification. You'll never see a straight parking podium with no street connectivity. Goes against every good planning policy.

[LFC]

I am of the very small minority that actually prefers the look and character of podiums with mixed use commercia/residential frontage over street level tower residences.

I much prefer the podium of One Water over Waterscapes....I do agree a tower podium like Ella/Brooklynn are a bit bland, but adding some depth, mixed facade materials and less massing really helps designs.

Waterscapes:






One Water

[The Great Scaper]

Originally Posted by dc!

renders have it looking a decent bit better than blank concrete at least

That does look a lot better and nice to see some ground floor retail. Thanks for sharing the rendering.

[KelownaResident]

The building looks pretty by itself, but that rendering is shown from an above ground perspective. From ground perspective the podium looks nasty big and overpowering. Proof of that is the Ella building. Pretty from a distance, but from ground level it's like staring at a concrete wall. Sorry but I don't think that's an excellent design and considering that this is main street in Kelowna I think city council and planning really screwed up with Bernard Block. Yes it seems like it meets all the guidelines like max 4 story podium but it is really not nearly as good as it should be.

[Newstart]

Originally Posted by giallo

Agreed.

Unfortunately, Kelowna builds its parking above ground due to an extremely high water table, so the podiums tend to be parkades. It makes for some unattractive bases.

Hopefully, developers find some creative ways to make these parkades more visually appealing.

You mean finding solutions like everywhere else in the world? North Vancouver, into the water table, False Creek in Vancouver, into the water table, Richmond, into the water table.

It is completely feasible to build into the water table yet Planning and the City accepts the argument because its largely Mission Group building these towers...Its one thing for One Water Street where you have land and you can hide it tastefully. Nothing Mission Group is doing is remotely attractive largely because of the podium base.

Richmond ALL the parkades are tanked with a membrane. Its completely feasible but Kelowna doesn't force it.

[The Great Scaper]

Kelowna should be really careful of how they build their new high rises. In the late 60's and early 70's Victoria had huge a building boom and was cracking out a lot of new high rises however they were so poorly designed and it was the reason the city stopped allowing developers to build tall buildings. It wasn't until the early 2000's that things started changing again. In around 1994 the Provincial Government owned a property called the Y lot, behind the Empress and they went to the city to build two high rise office buildings. The city made a deal with the crown corp called BCBC that if they restored the then condemned St. Anne's Academy they'd allow the density increase and height increase. So the government put millions of dollars into St. Annes and fully restored it. Funny thing is they ended up not building the office buildings but sold the property to Concert Properties who ended up building The Marriott Hotel, The Belvedere and 20 story Astoria on that property in 2004 which opened the door to the new taller buildings now built since in Victoria.

Here's the two main buildings that Victoria built in 1969 and 1970 that created a huge public outcry and put a halt in high rise buildings being built.

The Orchard House, built in '69 by thegreatscaper, on Flickr

Victoria B.C. Canada by thegreatscaper, on Flickr

[csbvan]

Yeah some of the Victoria slab towers from that era unfortunately seem to have taken their influence from the worst of Central/Eastern Canada as opposed to the more thoughtful examples from across the Strait in the West End.

Ideally Kelowna will begin to push for more u/g parkades to ensure residential just above street level. That being said, I disagree that a tower like Ella is a failure at ground level. Apart from the blank wall facing a future development on one side (common practice everywhere), it meets the street well enough with its retail component, and the podium is well hidden as a parking structure. I've walked past it many times, it works well from the sidewalk.

[JayMi]

A lot of great points beings made. One thing I love most about this forum is all the different opinions. Ideally from a planing perspective and visual interest there would be no above ground parkade structures and everything can be tanked below grade.

However keep in mind there are two sides to everything, UBCO being a great examples with a 4 storey below grade parking. They are using the same process and technology as used in Richmond. While planning loves it all below grade to have a better streetscape, the biggest push back comes from development engineering. Their preference is to see zero parking below grade. The water below ground still needs to go somewhere so the City Storm is going to be under heavy constant demand.

So a lot of time it’s a balance. Won’t tolerate too much parking above grade and everything extra needs to get tanked, but what’s the cost to the city if infrastructure pressure increases. Developers pay for it initially but it’s the City’s responsibility for the rest of its life after that. In the long run something like Ella is going to cost tax payers significantly less than UBCO will, so like i said, there’s a balance. Planning department and public benefit is one thing but building department and engineering departments also have inputs on development proposals based on their expertise. They also do what they think is best for the City, like the planning department, but it may look a little different then what we see on the surface.

[Newstart]

Originally Posted by The Great Scaper

That does look a lot better and nice to see some ground floor retail. Thanks for sharing the rendering.

based on the current pre-cast sections being put up currently on the building do not read anything like this rendering AT ALL. Not even close. Which is likely the case.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by The Great Scaper

Kelowna should be really careful of how they build their new high rises. In the late 60's and early 70's Victoria had huge a building boom and was cracking out a lot of new high rises however they were so poorly designed and it was the reason the city stopped allowing developers to build tall buildings. It wasn't until the early 2000's that things started changing again. In around 1994 the Provincial Government owned a property called the Y lot, behind the Empress and they went to the city to build two high rise office buildings. The city made a deal with the crown corp called BCBC that if they restored the then condemned St. Anne's Academy they'd allow the density increase and height increase. So the government put millions of dollars into St. Annes and fully restored it. Funny thing is they ended up not building the office buildings but sold the property to Concert Properties who ended up building The Marriott Hotel, The Belvedere and 20 story Astoria on that property in 2004 which opened the door to the new taller buildings now built since in Victoria.

Here's the two main buildings that Victoria built in 1969 and 1970 that created a huge public outcry and put a halt in high rise buildings being built.

The Orchard House, built in '69 by thegreatscaper, on Flickr

Victoria B.C. Canada by thegreatscaper, on Flickr

I think the biggest complaint from residents was that they blocked the view of the Olympic mountains because not only were they both tall but they were wide but I haven't seen anything like either of them proposed in Kelowna and even if they were, what view would they block?

[Vin]

That's one of the ugliest buildings in the entire province. Sad that it is so prominent and usually seen with some of the most beautiful buildings in Victoria: the Legislature building and The Empress.

I would not shed a tear if it were to be torn down, or possibly upgraded.

[Metro-One]

If it were half the width and given a good power wash it wouldn't be that bad, but as is...

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by Vin

That's one of the ugliest buildings in the entire province. Sad that it is so prominent and usually seen with some of the most beautiful buildings in Victoria: the Legislature building and The Empress.

I would not shed a tear if it were to be torn down, or possibly upgraded.

I agree, they should do something to improve it the way they improved View Towers years ago by painting it, although Orchard House are condos whereas View Towers are rentals

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by csbvan

Yeah some of the Victoria slab towers from that era unfortunately seem to have taken their influence from the worst of Central/Eastern Canada as opposed to the more thoughtful examples from across the Strait in the West End.

Just a brief detour here but Victoria has ONE large slab tower (aka commie block) and the other mid-rise towers in James Bay are exactly what you see in the West End. One commie block after which the city didn’t make that mistake again is pretty good compared to the dozens you see in a lot of Canadian cities.

Back to the point of this thread - JayMi thanks for sharing your insights, helpful for the discussion. Also I wonder if there isn’t a day coming soon where underground parking is banned altogether or limited to 1 or 2 levels because of the large carbon footprint impact of building it. Also easy parking encourages private vehicle ownership in the city (before anyone gets there knickers in a knot I’m not saying that should be a goal). Also underground excavation adds greatly to the cost of building and the time - from the recent builds here it’s about 30 to 40% of the total time just to complete the excavation and parking infrastructure.

In the meantime, it does give Kelowna a unique look - let’s just hope that the design standard expectations are set very high. Could be cool driving down the main strip in years to come and seeing unique approaches to different podiums, whether that’s indigenous designs, neon lighting, video wall, green/living walls, modern art patterns, etc etc. Make it a feature attraction, not a detraction.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Just a brief detour here but Victoria has ONE large slab tower (aka commie block) and the other mid-rise towers in James Bay are exactly what you see in the West End. One commie block after which the city didn’t make that mistake again is pretty good compared to the dozens you see in a lot of Canadian cities.

Are you talking about View Towers or Orchard House?

[The Great Scaper]

Victoria has a few commie blocks. View Towers, The Orchard House and the Roberts House all were the tallest buildings in Victoria up until 2014 when The Promontory was built. They were the reason they stopped building tall buildings in Victoria.

[DKaz]

In 2015, City of Edmonton allowed this to be built: