Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I was not suggesting we should care about the companies that make buses. I more meant that they might have some sway in the MB/Winnipeg governments.?

My counter argument is that if New Flyer really had as much sway as we’re lead to believe Winnipeg should hypothetically have one of the most developed BRT systems in the entire planet and here we are in 2023 with 1 BRT line connecting Downtown to University of Manitoba (which tbf was highly necessary and am glad it was the first one to be built).

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

The thing nobody really know is that Quebec City has more KMs of highways/capita than pretty much any city in Canada aside Calgary.

The Quebec City region is at 1,09km/1,000 people, Winnipeg at 0.2/1,000 people. Calgary 1,2/1,000.

With as many highways, you won't get a high BRT ridership in any way.
Winnipeg Metro area is about 5,285km², whereas the Quebec City Metro is 3,408km². One could argue that Quebec City is overserved by its highway network but we could also say that Winnipeg doesn't have a proper highway network and/or has an underdevelopped highway network.

Laval (466k) will have about 55 kms of intra-city autoroutes once the A-19 will be finished, Quebec City is almost double that, Winnipeg doesn't even have a proper intra-city highway network. Winnipeg does have a Perimeter Highway but that's about it.

Imo this is more of an advantage for Winnipeg then a detracton. I’m glad we don’t invest more in highways, especially ones that have the chance to completely destroy some neighbourhoods as seen throughout North America. I’m in the Bay Area rn and some of the highway interchanges make me nauseous with the amount of overpasses and tunnels they have.

The only freeway Winnipeg would need is the perimeter highway

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Would you also include Vancouver and Montreal in that? Montreal seems to be doing a great job with its transportation infrastructure and I always see people on here and elsewhere raving how great Vancouvers trasnportation system is (minus the commuter traints).

Montreal is really far behind. Yes, the REM will be a big step forward in terms of rapid transit service, and the Blue Line extension will help. But there are huge gaps with no clear plans to fill them:

- The South Shore needs rapid transit along the Taschereau corridor to create TODs and serve already-dense areas like Vieux-Longueuil, but plans seem stalled, partly because the provincial government has made clear it would prefer a REM line over the previously planned light rail project, LÉEO. But the CDPQ doesn't seem keen and so nobody is moving forward.

- The east end of the island needs rapid transit and the REM de l'Est would have offered this but very imperfectly. Now that it's cancelled, the replacement project seems even more subpar, and given how transit projects here go, it may never materialize.

- There are huge swaths of densely-populated areas that don't have any rapid transit. The current mayor's Pink Line proposal was actually a brilliant solution to serve some of the city's densest yet most transit-deprived areas while also creating a diagonal line that could connect all the existing metro lines. But for political reasons it likely will never happen.

- There's a tramway/LRT proposal to connect downtown with Lachine, but who knows if it will ever happen, and it would leave out LaSalle, a borough that is already fairly dense but very car-oriented and would really benefit from more rapid transit.

- The commuter train system is an absolute joke. It's still geared towards 9-5/M-F commuters that don't really exist anymore, so frequencies are low and it's useless as a regional rail system. There was an ambitious plan ten years ago to turn the most important lines into a kind of RER system with all-day service and 15-minute headways, but the provincial government wasn't interested, and it was shelved. Now there's no hope of that happening.

Maybe it's a grass-is-greener thing, but from here I'm jealous of what Toronto is doing in terms of transit. The Ontario Line, the three new LRTs and the GO Expansion – that's amazing stuff. I'd never describe the Ford government as pro-transit but they look like absolute railfans compared to the Legault government.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Ok I can concede that Winnipeg at its current junction could be better served with BRT first with our large amount of corridors so it would be faster to implement and to test. I do want to say I overrated the amount of corridors because Portage-Provencher can be considered 1 corridor and so can theoretically Pembina-Henderson highway Via Donald St.

Yeah, I think maybe you listed too much a bit too much, lol. I don't know too much about the city, but I am sure there some very busy corridors worthy of LRT where the riders can be concentrated further.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

My main concern is Winnipeg Transit is already facing a massive labour shortage and there’s simply no point in expanding a system where that trend can be further exacerbated unless we go the route of autonomous busses but who knows how long that takes before it becomes reality. That’s why I feel rail transit will better serve our needs.

Unfortunately, here in Mississauga they have also cut transit service recently due to lack of drivers. It seems a big problem everywhere now.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

However, too state that Durham region, a suburb of the GTA with a lower population and population density spread over a larger land area is comparable to Winnipeg which is the capital of a province in the middle of the country is a bit far fetched don’t you think? Especially considering that it’s the largest population centre for literally THOUSANDS of kilometres. There’s really not any city in Canada that “deserves” rail transit more then Winnipeg that don’t already have plans for it.

Yeah, that was my point. Just because one municipality gets light rail funding doesn't mean another should. Light rail definitely more fitting for Winnipeg than for Durham.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

So does Winnipeg NEED it?

Well not really, but would it urbanize the city faster, lead to more TOD development, accommodate our cities population growth better, and provide a higher quality of life then BRT? Absolutely!

So it’s a want that can be considered a need depending on how needy a person is. When it comes to transit I’m a very needy person.

Yeah, that why when I look at Portage and Main, I thought they would be amazing corridors for LRT. Such wide corridors with so much redevelopment potential, I just imagine how much they can be transformed. That's why I did not support the Eglinton and Finch LRTs. Portage LRT and Main LRT would make sense. LRTs along a narrow corridor like Eglinton or a corridor with little redevelopment potential like Finch made no sense to me. Even as a Toronto area transit user, if I could go back in time and trade the stupid Eglinton LRT and Finch LRT for a Portage LRT and Main LRT, I would do it.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Are they great, or is the bar set so low that they are better than most? If we compared Montreal's transit with others around the world, is it actually that good? Same for Vancouver; is it actually good, or is it just good for Canada?

That's a good question. I think Montreal holds it own pretty well. Someone mentioned MTL doesn't have transit going right to the Airport. It will soon though, the REM will connect right to the Airport. The REM will also use automated trains and have platform screen doors at stations.

The existing metro system in Montreal has one of the highest riderships in north america. Overall I would say it's pretty great. I hope the plans to extend it go through.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Montreal is really far behind. Yes, the REM will be a big step forward in terms of rapid transit service, and the Blue Line extension will help. But there are huge gaps with no clear plans to fill them:

- The South Shore needs rapid transit along the Taschereau corridor to create TODs and serve already-dense areas like Vieux-Longueuil, but plans seem stalled, partly because the provincial government has made clear it would prefer a REM line over the previously planned light rail project, LÉEO. But the CDPQ doesn't seem keen and so nobody is moving forward.

- The east end of the island needs rapid transit and the REM de l'Est would have offered this but very imperfectly. Now that it's cancelled, the replacement project seems even more subpar, and given how transit projects here go, it may never materialize.

- There are huge swaths of densely-populated areas that don't have any rapid transit. The current mayor's Pink Line proposal was actually a brilliant solution to serve some of the city's densest yet most transit-deprived areas while also creating a diagonal line that could connect all the existing metro lines. But for political reasons it likely will never happen.

- There's a tramway/LRT proposal to connect downtown with Lachine, but who knows if it will ever happen, and it would leave out LaSalle, a borough that is already fairly dense but very car-oriented and would really benefit from more rapid transit.

- The commuter train system is an absolute joke. It's still geared towards 9-5/M-F commuters that don't really exist anymore, so frequencies are low and it's useless as a regional rail system. There was an ambitious plan ten years ago to turn the most important lines into a kind of RER system with all-day service and 15-minute headways, but the provincial government wasn't interested, and it was shelved. Now there's no hope of that happening.

Maybe it's a grass-is-greener thing, but from here I'm jealous of what Toronto is doing in terms of transit. The Ontario Line, the three new LRTs and the GO Expansion – that's amazing stuff. I'd never describe the Ford government as pro-transit but they look like absolute railfans compared to the Legault government.

You are jealous of the LRTs? The Finch and Elginton line?? The REM is much better than those projects. The Ontario line is great though. Though I am not sure it is any better than what the REM is doing. Go expansion is not that amazing, They will use the same bulky trains except they will be hauled by an electric locomotive. The only good thing about that expansion is they are making some lines more grade separated. I agree with you though commuter trains can improve in MTL.


Having lived in both MTL and Toronto, I personally always felt the Montreal metro was much more useful for getting around than the TTC subway.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Doady

Yes, and that was one indicator of too much concentration of riders and capacity issues. I didn't automatically disqualify Hamilton even though it has similar number of artics and similar snowfall as Winnipeg. I even explained why capacity is such a big problem in Hamilton.

I didn't say Nashville or Longueuil needs LRT more than Winnipeg either. There are so many ways to increase capacity like increased frequency, articulated buses, all-door boarding schemes, ROWs, limited stops but Winnipeg has so few of these.

I glance at corridors like Portage and Main and I think they would be awesome for LRT. But how much of the system's ridership is concentrated along these corridors? That's what I am wondering.

Portage Avenue with 10 minute service in midday is different from Hurontario Street in Mississauga with 2 minute 43 seconds service in midday (6 minutes local, 10 minutes express Mississauga Transit, 10 minutes express Brampton Transit) or King Street in Hamilton with 4 minutes 17 seconds service all day (6 minutes local 1 King, 15 minutes express 10 Beeline). We are talking about 2 to 4 times difference in the amount of buses serving these three corridors.

Winnipeg is twice the physical size of Mississauga. That means that it has had no need to build up. The fact that they are talking about putting something in that could lead to building up instead of out. This could be the kick they need to really grow up.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

My counter argument is that if New Flyer really had as much sway as we’re lead to believe Winnipeg should hypothetically have one of the most developed BRT systems in the entire planet and here we are in 2023 with 1 BRT line connecting Downtown to University of Manitoba (which tbf was highly necessary and am glad it was the first one to be built).

Good point. You would think a bus manufacturer would like to highlight how good buses can be for RT. So, maybe the bus manufacturer there and how the city has built is more of a coincidence.

Originally Posted by Luisito

That's a good question. I think Montreal holds it own pretty well. Someone mentioned MTL doesn't have transit going right to the Airport. It will soon though, the REM will connect right to the Airport. The REM will also use automated trains and have platform screen doors at stations.

The existing metro system in Montreal has one of the highest riderships in north america. Overall I would say it's pretty great. I hope the plans to extend it go through.

The TTC is the busiest one in Canada, and the 3rd busiest one in NA. Does that mean it is the best one?

Worldwide, nothing in Canada is much to talk about.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The TTC is the busiest one in Canada, and the 3rd busiest one in NA. Does that mean it is the best one?

Worldwide, nothing in Canada is much to talk about.

To Canadians it's likely a decent subway system but to people coming from most other large cities it doesn't compare all that favourably. There are improvements and more lines coming but it's not enough for the size and scope required. Ontario Line and GO Expansion are good projects.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The TTC is the busiest one in Canada, and the 3rd busiest one in NA. Does that mean it is the best one?

Worldwide, nothing in Canada is much to talk about.

No, it doesn't mean that and I didn't say that either. Overall i agree canada is not much to talk about, but Montreal is head and shoulders above the ROC when it comes to transit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

To Canadians it's likely a decent subway system but to people coming from most other large cities it doesn't compare all that favourably. There are improvements and more lines coming but it's not enough for the size and scope required. Ontario Line and GO Expansion are good projects.

And that is why anyone saying that Winnipeg should not get an LRT needs to go on vacation. Might I suggest Lausanne, Switzerland? It has about the same population as Barrie.....

Originally Posted by Luisito

No, it doesn't mean that and I didn't say that either. Overall i agree canada is not much to talk about, but Montreal is head and shoulders above the ROC when it comes to transit.

The ROC is not the benchmark, is it?

[Nouvellecosse]

I do prefer the Montreal metro over the TTC subway but the TTC bus and streetcar network put it on par or even ahead of Montreal overall.

A city's rapid transit system is important but it isn't the only thing that determines whether or not a place has good transit. Especially in places with lower density than Manhattan or Paris - which most places are - where it's not practical to cover the whole place with rapid transit.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And that is why anyone saying that Winnipeg should not get an LRT needs to go on vacation. Might I suggest Lausanne, Switzerland? It has about the same population as Barrie.....



The ROC is not the benchmark, is it?

What is the benchmark in your opinion??

[Doady]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Winnipeg is twice the physical size of Mississauga. That means that it has had no need to build up. The fact that they are talking about putting something in that could lead to building up instead of out. This could be the kick they need to really grow up.

Does Winnipeg include undeveloped land within its borders? Because the developed area seems very similar in size to Mississauga.

I can get behind LRT to help transform Portage and Main and shape the future growth of Winnipeg. Such an LRT system would be much better than those idiotic LRTs under construction in Toronto, that's for sure. But is it as urgent as LRT for Quebec City and Hamilton? That's the real question.

Toronto has the "Avenues Plan" to highlight corridors with high redevelopment potential and Portage and Main in Winnipeg would definitely be considered Avenues by Toronto's standard. Finch West? Not so much. A Wilson LRT would have been made a lot more sense than the Finch LRT by Toronto's own standards. But that's what happens when you let short term politicians like Adam Giambrone decide where to build new transit. Winnipeg, continue taking your time, think long term, don't make the same mistake Toronto did. No urgency is a good thing.

Finch Ave at Bathurst St:
https://goo.gl/maps/dWHkw2qknYtWm9c69

Wilson Ave at Bathurst St:
https://goo.gl/maps/RnqCy6d1WwkzR6aP9

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I do prefer the Montreal metro over the TTC subway but the TTC bus and streetcar network put it on par or even ahead of Montreal overall.

A city's rapid transit system is important but it isn't the only thing that determines whether or not a place has good transit. Especially in places with lower density than Manhattan or Paris - which most places are - where it's not practical to cover the whole place with rapid transit.

The Toronto street cars are cool but they don't really make getting around downtown toronto better or easier than getting around downtown montreal. Montreal has two metro lines going through it's downtown.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Luisito

What is the benchmark in your opinion??

Originally Posted by Doady

Does Winnipeg include undeveloped land within its borders? Because the developed area seems very similar in size to Mississauga.

I can get behind LRT to help transform Portage and Main and shape the future growth of Winnipeg. Such an LRT system would be much better than those idiotic LRTs under construction in Toronto, that's for sure. But is it as urgent as LRT for Quebec City and Hamilton? That's the real question.

Toronto has the "Avenues Plan" to highlight corridors with high redevelopment potential and Portage and Main in Winnipeg would definitely be considered Avenues by Toronto's standard. Finch West? Not so much. A Wilson LRT would have been made a lot more sense than the Finch LRT by Toronto's own standards. But that's what happens when you let short term politicians like Adam Giambrone decide where to build new transit. Winnipeg, continue taking your time, think long term, don't make the same mistake Toronto did. No urgency is a good thing.

Finch Ave at Bathurst St:
https://goo.gl/maps/dWHkw2qknYtWm9c69

Wilson Ave at Bathurst St:
https://goo.gl/maps/RnqCy6d1WwkzR6aP9

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Winnipe...ac6b9ca64!8m2!3d49.8954221!4d-97.1385145

If those boundaries are correct, it seems to have a lot.If one were to assume that everything within the Perimeter Highway was the city, there is a lot of land that is still empty of development. Sure, a lot of the developed area is SFH, it does not mean that once an LRT comes that the areas near the stations won't experience TOD.

Originally Posted by Luisito

The Toronto street cars are cool but they don't really make getting around downtown toronto better or easier than getting around downtown montreal. Montreal has two metro lines going through it's downtown.

Have you ever used transit in Toronto?

[GreaterMontréal]

We can't compare North America to Europe or Asia, our cities are much much younger and the layout is completely different. At least in Montreal you can choose what type of life you want to have.

You have 5 choices,

1- the urban core of the Metropolitan area, population 1 million, accessible by the Metro system and numerous REM stations. very good bus service, very walkable, very high density
2- first ring of suburbs or near suburbs, still moderate to high density, population +- 1.5 million, accessible by the REM, BRT and major highways, lots of bus lines
3- second ring of suburbs, low to moderate density, almost 100% car dependency, major highways, less bus lines, direct access to the Metro or the REM terminal stations, suburbs with stand-alone houses as the main type of housing, population 1,1 million
4- third ring of suburbs, low to moderate density, full car dependency, very bad bus network or none, quite far from the Autoroute network, population 1 million
5- exurbs, very low to low density, no bus line, less service or commodities, 100% car dependency, long transit du to the remoteness of the area to major highways , and far from industrial, commercial or institutional district. population, about 500k. this area is on the outskirts of the CMA boundary, popular because there is no density requirement,

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

We can't compare North America to Europe or Asia, our cities are much much younger and the layout is completely different. At least in Montreal you can choose what type of life you want to have.

You have 5 choices,

1- the urban core of the Metropolitan area, population 1 million, accessible by the Metro system and numerous REM stations. very good bus service, very walkable, very high density
2- first ring of suburbs or near suburbs, still moderate to high density, population +- 1.5 million, accessible by the REM, BRT and major highways, lots of bus lines
3- second ring of suburbs, low to moderate density, almost 100% car dependency, major highways, less bus lines, direct access to the Metro or the REM terminal stations, suburbs with stand-alone houses as the main type of housing, population 1,1 million
4- third ring of suburbs, low to moderate density, full car dependency, very bad bus network or none, quite far from the Autoroute network, population 1 million
5- exurbs, very low to low density, no bus line, less service or commodities, 100% car dependency, long transit du to the remoteness of the area to major highways , and far from industrial, commercial or institutional district. population, about 500k. this area is on the outskirts of the CMA boundary, popular because there is no density requirement,

Lets look at the GTA/GH/GTHA/Everywhere a GO train stops.
This area services about 9 million people.

The city of Toronto, good transit with various options
Durham and York Regions - Both have an expansive bus network and have a BRT of sorts. York has a few subway stations in it.
Peel Region has an LRT under construction.
Halton region has a good bus network for their cities
Hamilton has an LRT planned.
Niagara region has several bus systems in the various communities
KW has the LRT. It also has a good bus network.
London has a good bus network, and there are plans for RT.

That area is covered by the largest commuter rail system in Canada. This is also the 3rd busiest network in NA, after the 2 in NY and the one in Chicago. Montreal's is 9th.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

[



Have you ever used transit in Toronto?

Yes i moved to Toronto from Montreal. Like I said before I found it easier to get around montreal, the MTL metro system was more practical imo.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Yes i moved to Toronto from Montreal. Like I said before I found it easier to get around montreal, the MTL metro system was more practical imo.

I'd argue that without the streetcar lines, downtown Toronto would be as bad as Montreal.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

We can't compare North America to Europe or Asia, our cities are much much younger and the layout is completely different. At least in Montreal you can choose what type of life you want to have.

Exactly. Trying to compare MTL to Tokyo, seoul or Paris is ridiculous. Montreal does very well for a city it's size. The REM will only make it better.