Hamilton City Centre | ? | 3x30 & 24 fl | Proposal

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn

Places like Vancouver -- with arguably the worst drug problem in Canada -- are able to maintain some public spaces/plazas without constantly experiencing what you describe. The city will also never progress if we keep using this mindset that we can't have nice things because "the city already —, "too many druggies", "too many crazies", etc.

Including public spaces like this attract your average young person, families, etc, and as more of those kinds move in it will dilute the "problem people", ultimately improving the city. And like you said, an increased security/police presence would likely help.

Build it a deal with the issues people may cause. Don't NOT build it because of what "may" happen.

I'm not saying not build it - im saying build it with the expectation its GOING to happen and thus already preplan ways to mitigate it - instead of waiting for it to happen - we're not vancouver, and we're not there yet when it comes to not having those problems - we're a city in transition, so please don't put words in my mouth. I am just pointing out the obvious issues down the line, esp being right in the core where there is ALREADY EXISTING issues.

the issue is its not just a public plaza with say streets running alongside it - its an enclosed one. You''ll get a tiny bit of visibility in that one or 2 areas cars can pass by the entrance of, but what happens inside well.. we'll see. Maybe 10 years from now the city will have cleaned up its act and figured out what to do with homeless and dealt with the drug problem and littering of needles everywhere that already occurs in alleyways close to king. Having a night watch here would pretty much solve 95% of the problems I'd say, just patrolling back and forth. Security cameras are a must, and obv keep the entire area well-lit. Also limit the interior shops to things that don't tempt people to steal from them, like say expensive clothes stores jewelery stores etc. Put in benches with dividers in them so people can't sleep on them etc. Lots of simple things that can be done. Post signs with fines for those who loiter or sleep in this area.

There is still an issue in this city of how to treat people not of sound mind - its obv not their fault (well much of it is drug related so it might have been originally) but its not our fault either, and we've decided we can't just shack them up in loony bins so we're gonna have the random coked up junkie angrily shouting randomly through the streets.. I remember how bad it used to be in gore park when they had recently all been released and they were everywhere, shouting, muttering to themselves, you never quite knew if they were dangerous or just harmless until you got to know which ones were which..I noticed a lot of them magically disappeared during the pan am games - rumoured they were shipped off to st kitts so our city would appear "better" looking, but I have noticed them start to creep back in, notably along king william st, where I guess they know people have money, and pan handlers along king and catherine area..

[TheRitsman]

Yea, I just don't agree. Not only is Hamilton changing but there will be security on the grounds, and people on the lower levels will complain if there are people causing issues in the square. The reason this area has no nightlife is because of the relative lack of commercial or residential space. 4 towers of people will change the dynamic a lot. Marquee on George for example always has people going in and out of the front door at all hours of the day.

2068 units of residential housing with 3000 residents who paid $500k+ will change the dynamic a lot. I'd also hope that in 2034 when this is done Hamilton has hopefully done a lot more to resolve the mental health and homelessness crisis that has plagued our city.

I'd bet good money that this plaza space will not be locked off and will have very few issues when complete.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

Yea, I just don't agree. Not only is Hamilton changing but there will be security on the grounds, and people on the lower levels will complain if there are people causing issues in the square. The reason this area has no nightlife is because of the relative lack of commercial or residential space. 4 towers of people will change the dynamic a lot. Marquee on George for example always has people going in and out of the front door at all hours of the day.

2068 units of residential housing with 3000 residents who paid $500k+ will change the dynamic a lot. I'd also hope that in 2034 when this is done Hamilton has hopefully done a lot more to resolve the mental health and homelessness crisis that has plagued our city.

I'd bet good money that this plaza space will not be locked off and will have very few issues when complete.

I hope you are right man, I am just taking the pragmatic approach - I believe we BOTH have meritable issues on this subject. As I said security would solve 95% of the issues.

[King&James]

Article on the history of HEC

https://seanmarshall.ca/2022/11/26/the-end-of-another-eaton-centre/

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by King&James

Article on the history of HEC

https://seanmarshall.ca/2022/11/26/the-end-of-another-eaton-centre/

Thank you for that! I was born in 1983 so I was never actually sure if I had been in eatons before the city center - I actually called my mom and asked and she said we never had a reason to go downtown to it when I was a kid - although I remember going to the city center later on.. so it's fascinating to see the footage - esp. the elevators which I have heard so much about but never actually got to see in action. Can someone please make a video of the city center so we can remember it before it's torn down the same way?

[ScreamingViking]

And the clock shall strike 12...


Clock tower will ring in the New Year while bidding farewell to the City Centre mall
“That will be the end of the City Centre at that minute in time, the end of a chapter in the life of that city block” says Darryl Firsten, president of IN8 Developments.

Mark McNeil
The Hamilton Spectator
Tue., Dec. 13, 2022

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-re...in-new-year-farewell-to-city-centre.html

It’s a big bell with more than 130 years of history. But some people were never crazy about the two-tonne noisemaker in the Hamilton City Centre clock tower.

That’s why several years ago folks from the mall deactivated the ringer. Too many complaints from neighbours.

But this New Year’s Eve, new owners of the site are planning a special, final volley for Auld Lang Syne.

At the stroke of midnight, the bell will ring 12 times from high above the intersection of James and York to usher in the year 2023.

But more than that, it will also signify the closure of the City Centre — for good.

“That will be the end of the City Centre at that minute in time, the end of a chapter in the life of that city block” says Darryl Firsten, president of IN8 Developments, the Toronto-based company that is behind a massive four tower condominium project for the site.

“But we want to tell people to hold on because there is another chapter coming.”

And Firsten says the historic clock and bell — that used to be in a different tower at City Hall when it was on James Street North from the 1888 to 1961 — will be included in the new development.

But he says it’s going to take some time — up to seven years. The multi-year condominium project needs to finish demolition and complete a lot of construction work before turning attention to the clock.

But let’s go back in time, to see how we got to this latest downtown knockdown and rebuild.

Through Hamilton’s history, there have been three main civic political gathering spaces and three clock towers (two connected to city/town halls, and one as part of the City Centre mall that was a homage to the second tower).

The first 1839 building — off James Street on the border between the City Centre and Jackson Square — was a market hall. It evolved into a town hall that eventually included a small tower with a clock and a bell.



That building made way for a much larger stone City Hall and a taller clock tower and bell that was built 1888-1890. The Romanesque Revival structure was torn down in 1961 as an early victim of the controversial urban renewal plan that transformed the city’s core.



Hamilton’s current City Hall — version three — was officially opened on Main Street West in 1960 and is 600 metres southwest of version two. It has clock faces on sides of the marble building, but not a tower as such.

So, what about the clock and bell from bygone days?

It’s possible some parts from the first town hall clock were incorporated in the second. Maybe the first bell was melted down to be used as raw material for the second.

But it’s clear that when version two of the clock tower was demolished, then mayor Lloyd D. Jackson made sure the clock, its mechanisms and the bell were carefully removed in advance.

The clock parts ended up in a city storage garage and the bell was turned into a display at Sam Lawrence Park, says Dennis Missett, a local history fan and former president of the Head-of-the-Lake Historical Society. The stones from the tower — that were also kept — were eventually used for fill at King’s Forest Golf Course

Back in the late 1980s he argued that a new mall construction project — then known as the Hamilton Eaton Centre — ought to pay respect to the City Hall that used to stand on the site by building a clock tower like the one that used to exist.

The developer of the project, Cadillac Fairview, as well as city councillors, liked the idea. Originally, the plan was to build the tower at the same spot where the former tower used to stand. But it was later decided to construct it 150 metres to the north, so it would be the focal point for the northeast entrance.

But less than a decade after the mall opened, Eaton’s was in financial trouble. The complex became the City Centre, which has had its problems as well.

And now a Toronto developer has conditional site plan approval for a different approach entirely. Rooted in new urbanist thinking, he says his main focus will be on living spaces rather than shopping places. The accent will be on walking, not driving.

He wants to turn back the clock to a time before urban renewal levelled the downtown.

“It’s a step forward and a step backwards at the same time,” he says. Firsten is planning to extend King William, Rebecca and MacNab streets into pedestrian walkways over the former City Centre property. And he says the clock tower will be built near to where the original City Hall tower stood, off the King William extension.



...

[King&James]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

reposted for imagery

I feel the podium level (red brick) needs to be altered to match the heritage across the street, aka more stone pediments and nicer cornices - the grey stone on the first floor is ok, and I like the sash style windows - the rest above is generic and can't be changed much I suppose, I like the ceiling in the bridge part and what looks like a structural element they disguised as an art piece.

The main floor def looks better than the wtfery they originally proposed.

Some massive big build trees in the interior courtyard could really be a statement piece.

Where is this bell / clock tower actually going on the site?

[King&James]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

some more renderings from Harlo Capital's (The developer) website:

https://www.harlocapital.com/project/77-james/





















The fact that they have broken down the block and provided a pedestrian extension if King William Street looks incredible, but it needs work on material selection still I think..

I'm also left wondering how they are providing parking now. Before they had a large above grade garage in the middle of the block, it looks like that has now been nixed and replaced with the courtyard. Where did the parking go? Underground? Or did they just kill most of it (Hopefully!)?

Bringing images forward

[905er]

the design of these towers looks rather simple but I. quite like it. Great pedestrian walkways and a simple classic silhouette of the towers will hopefully mean it look sharp for years to come.

[Fruitloops]

As someone previously mentioned there's an opportunity to make a building at the corner of York and James an iconic Hamilton landmark. I ask the developers be bold, go 50 floors and light it up like the Aria. It would be visible across the city and beyond.

[spaghettisam]

That'd be really cool. It would act as the center of the skyline

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by Fruitloops

As someone previously mentioned there's an opportunity to make a building at the corner of York and James an iconic Hamilton landmark. I ask the developers be bold, go 50 floors and light it up like the Aria. It would be visible across the city and beyond.

The plans for this development are already finalized. Construction is starting in January. The building at that intersection is not too tall.

[spaghettisam]

I mean construction is supposed to take 7 years so I wouldn't be surprised (****or opposed***) to design changes. Personally, I'd love to see something taller, or at the very least...more unique than these

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by spaghettisam

I mean construction is supposed to take 7 years so I wouldn't be surprised (****or opposed***) to design changes. Personally, I'd love to see something taller, or at the very least...more unique than these

7 years sounds like a long way out, but in the building design world that's actually quite soon. This development is far beyond the preliminary massing stages. These designs are mostly finalized, and most likely already in the hands of structural/mechanical engineers. It's very unlikely at this point that any changes will be made. Those renders above are pretty much what they're going to look like.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

7 years sounds like a long way out, but in the building design world that's actually quite soon. This development is far beyond the preliminary massing stages. These designs are mostly finalized, and most likely already in the hands of structural/mechanical engineers. It's very unlikely at this point that any changes will be made. Those renders above are pretty much what they're going to look like.

Darko would do it.

"Well, we had all this extra concrete and rebar, dug down a bit deeper than planned... so the foundation she's good for another 15, 20 storeys!"

[shoelessjoe]

Took a last walk through the City Centre today. It has been a very long time since I've been in there. Last time I was there I think Eaton's had only recently departed...so we are talking 20+ years. As we've discussed before -- the bones are still there -- and still good, but I definitely left there today feeling depressed. I have my memories (good ones) of that place in it's short heyday -- and I'm glad I got to take a walk through today -- entering the mall through the entrance on York that once opened into the first floor of Eaton's -- at one time a brightly lit and bustling first floor -- those days are obviously long gone...and not much remains beyond the pastel floors. Farewell HEC/HCC.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by King&James

Where is this bell / clock tower actually going on the site?

Across from the lister block is where the original tower was. So on the corner of the building where the stairs go up to jacksons rooftop on the new building side.

So contrary to what was said above, if they wish to place it where the tower originally was, they are going to have to modify their designs, as there is no place on their designs atm to place it, as for it to go exactly where it was would more or less have it rising out of that alleyway they want to have outdoor patio seating in beside the first building, or have it rise somehow from the corner of the first building..

Also I love how they want to go back to the "past" and make it walkable browsing, yet fail to have any sort of awnings or protection from the weather so people can browse in an outdoor sorta shopping mall setting - they need something like niagara outdoor shopping center has - where there is canvas draped between the buildings you walk under.. not some wooden trellis that protects you from nothing like they have proposed..

[TheRitsman]

I don't think you need that, most of James doesn't have awnings and it's an "older style" commercial strip. Plus those awnings at the outlet mall are kinda ugly.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

I don't think you need that, most of James doesn't have awnings and it's an "older style" commercial strip. Plus those awnings at the outlet mall are kinda ugly.

Actually a lot of the original buildings still have the awnings - they just don't always "pull" them out (some of them are pretty ratty and might not be able to be pulled out anymore actually..) - a lot of james street originally had awnings. The entirety of king st around gore park originally had awnings. People have cars these days - they park and they shop - if they want true walkability year round you need some sorta weather protection.

Hell if you go far enough back those main streets all had wooden awnings that stretched over the sidewalks. It was a cool look - you only see that kinda stuff out east now these days.

Also we don't have the dept stores for window shopping that we used to. James st north of king is mostly restaurants or art galleries - people go in and they eat or browse - or they sit outside while the weather is nice.

Look at king william - that restored section DOES have awnings - and boy does it ever make a difference -esp on super sunny days.

I do agree the niagara ones are kinda ugly though. I like the ones they did on king william though.





I am still amazed at how beautifully they restored that building from one of the crappiest looking ones on the street to literally the centerpiece crowning jewel of that corner strip.

[SteelTown]

Great drone shot of now closed Hamilton City Centre

• Video Link