1186-1194 Wellington St West | 61m | 16f | U/C

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

In Leiper's defense, anytime his own constituents suggest they don't want "renters" in their neighbourhood, Leiper calls them out.

That is the definition of a hypocrite. He presents himself as this progressive, woke, inclusive, councillor. When in reality he is the exact opposite and does everything in his power to block every apartment infill in his ward not on Scott Street. He is completely full of sh*t.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The 12 storey building across the street was probably a contentious issue, and now this 16 storey tower is controversial, but in your view, if this one is approved, then the next should be allowed at 20+. Where does it end?

Yes, that is exactly how land development works. That is how you properly build up a city. Local precedence dictates what is acceptable growth in the neighbourhood. Otherwise all new builds would just stay at zoning heights and the Richmond/Wellington canyon would run 9 storeys for miles from downtown to Lincoln Heights. There is no reason a dense urban inner-city neighbourhood can't mix in some 15-25 storey buildings at major intersections so close to mass transit. Leiper has a small town mentality and should be a councillor in a sleepy provincial town somewhere.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

This IS an extremely busy intersection on a traditional main street. I'm all for 20-30-40 floors on Parkdale north of Scott, and Scott itself, but Wellington West, I'm reluctant. Maybe it's ok for gateway intersections, but not all the way down the street.

We're not running out of space to build. Scott is a blank slate and so is Tunney's (and LeBreton, and Bayview). Limiting this one to 12 floors isn't going to make the housing market worse than it is now.

So because people not from the neighbourhood (suburbs) pack into their cars and create traffic in someone else's neighbourhood, we should stymie good developments in that neighbourhood? Suburbanites and their cars are more important than intensification? Fixing the traffic problem is a much better idea than restricting developments to help drivers. Close the Parkdale 417 ramps or let people sit in traffic until they get so annoyed they take a different route or start taking transit. We need to stop bending over backwards for our car overlords in Autowa..

Side note 1: What is the difference between 12 storeys and 16 storeys? Unless your balcony counting you probably wouldn't even notice 4 extra floors as it's indistinguishable from street level. It's an arbitrary number and a ridiculous argument.

Side note 2: A 9 storey box probably has almost as many units as the proposed 16 storey tower on a 6 storey podium. So the whole argument is BS.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

So because people not from the neighbourhood (suburbs) pack into their cars and create traffic in someone else's neighbourhood, we should stymie good developments in that neighbourhood? Suburbanites and their cars are more important than intensification? Fixing the traffic problem is a much better idea than restricting developments to help drivers. Close the Parkdale 417 ramps or let people sit in traffic until they get so annoyed they take a different route or start taking transit. We need to stop bending over backwards for our car overlords in Autowa..

Side note 1: What is the difference between 12 storeys and 16 storeys? Unless your balcony counting you probably wouldn't even notice 4 extra floors as it's indistinguishable from street level. It's an arbitrary number and a ridiculous argument.

Side note 2: A 9 storey box probably has almost as many units as the proposed 16 storey tower on a 6 storey podium. So the whole argument is BS.

THIS. ALL of this.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

That is the definition of a hypocrite. He presents himself as this progressive, woke, inclusive, councillor. When in reality he is the exact opposite and does everything in his power to block every apartment infill in his ward not on Scott Street. He is completely full of sh*t.

I was responding to your "apartment people" comment by pointing out Leiper defends renters. If he approved condo towers over rentals towers, in this context, that would make him a hypocrite.

Leiper is not against development (like Doucet or Holmes, for example). He generally opposes developments over the current zoning, though sometimes supports over zoning as well. Can you admit that Leiper is not the worse we've seen when it comes to development?

Seems reasonable that a Councillor tries to find a balance between what his constituents want and what follows the City's current policies (current zoning and goals that often clash).

Yes, that is exactly how land development works. That is how you properly build up a city. Local precedence dictates what is acceptable growth in the neighbourhood. Otherwise all new builds would just stay at zoning heights and the Richmond/Wellington canyon would run 9 storeys for miles from downtown to Lincoln Heights. There is no reason a dense urban inner-city neighbourhood can't mix in some 15-25 storey buildings at major intersections so close to mass transit. Leiper has a small town mentality and should be a councillor in a sleepy provincial town somewhere.

In your mind, we should not have any zoning at all. We should let developers build whatever they want. Council should not waste their time debating and voting on residential proposals, just rubber stamp everything.

So because people not from the neighbourhood (suburbs) pack into their cars and create traffic in someone else's neighbourhood, we should stymie good developments in that neighbourhood? Suburbanites and their cars are more important than intensification? Fixing the traffic problem is a much better idea than restricting developments to help drivers. Close the Parkdale 417 ramps or let people sit in traffic until they get so annoyed they take a different route or start taking transit. We need to stop bending over backwards for our car overlords in Autowa..

We don't have good alternatives to driving at the moment. Outside the O-Train, our transit has poor service on paper and even worse in practice. It's built for suburbs to downtown commuting and nothing else. Until we have a proper transit and cycling network, we can't expect people to switch. We can't choke our way out of congestion.

Side note 1: What is the difference between 12 storeys and 16 storeys? Unless your balcony counting you probably wouldn't even notice 4 extra floors as it's indistinguishable from street level. It's an arbitrary number and a ridiculous argument.

Not much of a difference between 12 and 16, but there is a difference between the baseline main street 6 and 16.

Side note 2: A 9 storey box probably has almost as many units as the proposed 16 storey tower on a 6 storey podium. So the whole argument is BS.

I agree that we should focus more on density than height. This building as proposed is better than a 9 or 12 storey box. Case-in-point, the Taggart build across the street is dismal. Very imposing, which is ironic considering their building on the other side of the block at Rosemount is exemplary and often used by Leiper as a bench-mark of what he would like to see more often.

[postingaboutottawa]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

That is the definition of a hypocrite. He presents himself as this progressive, woke, inclusive, councillor. When in reality he is the exact opposite and does everything in his power to block every apartment infill in his ward not on Scott Street. He is completely full of sh*t.



Yes, that is exactly how land development works. That is how you properly build up a city. Local precedence dictates what is acceptable growth in the neighbourhood. Otherwise all new builds would just stay at zoning heights and the Richmond/Wellington canyon would run 9 storeys for miles from downtown to Lincoln Heights. There is no reason a dense urban inner-city neighbourhood can't mix in some 15-25 storey buildings at major intersections so close to mass transit. Leiper has a small town mentality and should be a councillor in a sleepy provincial town somewhere.



Side note 1: What is the difference between 12 storeys and 16 storeys? Unless your balcony counting you probably wouldn't even notice 4 extra floors as it's indistinguishable from street level. It's an arbitrary number and a ridiculous argument.

Side note 2: A 9 storey box probably has almost as many units as the proposed 16 storey tower on a 6 storey podium. So the whole argument is BS.

Why not have wellington and richmond be capped at 12 and have it stretch for miles that sounds nice if I went to montreal and saw this development in the plateau along st laurent nice design or not it would stick out negatively.

Its doesn't seem to be about housing because as you point out it would be possible to redistribute the units.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I was responding to your "apartment people" comment by pointing out Leiper defends renters. If he approved condo towers over rentals towers, in this context, that would make him a hypocrite.

Leiper is not against development (like Doucet or Holmes, for example). He generally opposes developments over the current zoning, though sometimes supports over zoning as well. Can you admit that Leiper is not the worse we've seen when it comes to development?

Seems reasonable that a Councillor tries to find a balance between what his constituents want and what follows the City's current policies (current zoning and goals that often clash).

In your mind, we should not have any zoning at all. We should let developers build whatever they want. Council should not waste their time debating and voting on residential proposals, just rubber stamp everything.

We don't have good alternatives to driving at the moment. Outside the O-Train, our transit has poor service on paper and even worse in practice. It's built for suburbs to downtown commuting and nothing else. Until we have a proper transit and cycling network, we can't expect people to switch. We can't choke our way out of congestion.

Not much of a difference between 12 and 16, but there is a difference between the baseline main street 6 and 16.

I agree that we should focus more on density than height. This building as proposed is better than a 9 or 12 storey box. Case-in-point, the Taggart build across the street is dismal. Very imposing, which is ironic considering their building on the other side of the block at Rosemount is exemplary and often used by Leiper as a bench-mark of what he would like to see more often.

This sounds like the same BS someone tried to post in r/Ottawa until they deleted all of there comments.

Leiper a Hypocrite because he makes comments like this "A planner's recommendation is the key that unlocks re-zonings"

https://twitter.com/JLeiper/status/1...S5FLnSL8zofsyw

and then when it comes time to act on them, he renegs on his own opinions, cause this very project was recommended for approval by staff. Leiper a hypocrite because he continually argues for intensification then argues against the very policy changes required to put that plan in action. That is also what makes him (Menard, & at time McKenney) worse then others because the others don't paint themselves as some kind of proponent of growth through infill and then vote against it.

A councilor shouldn't be having any say in specific site plans/zoning at all, council makes the plan, creates the Zoning bylaw and if a spot rezoning is requested then it goes to staff who check the official plan & policies on file. If "too many" spot rezoning are happening then council can modify the policies or the zoning to better match said plan or council can take the site to the OMB/OLT.

Currently, Councillors made a decisions based on what will get them re-elected instead of based on what is legally allowed or required by the official plan they put in place. In this case they straight up ignored the official plan & staff recommendations, all because of "traffic" and a secondary plan that was didn't take into account TOD.

As for "chocking our way out of congestion" well how exactly do you think "induced demand" works....nvm, the fact that this site is within 600metres of said mass transit system and a perfect opportunity to allow people to live in an area where a car won't be required for every trip. The city is not going to get more people using transit if we force them to all live in the suburbs or exurbs which is exactly where the growth is heading if its not allowed in places like this.

As for your last comments on a 9-12 story box, kinda a departure on your opinion of 979 wellington, which is now a ~12 story box that Leiper is still opposing, even though agian

[Harley613]

Here comes the monolithic squatbox! It is the Ottawa Way.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...and-hintonburg

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Here comes the monolithic squatbox! It is the Ottawa Way.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...and-hintonburg

Shocked it was rejected, honestly. It had the Trifecta of approval guarantee:

• Approved by staff;
• Disliked by Leiper
• Minto (or insert any local developer that donated to the Mayor's past campaigns).

[shelltime]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We're not running out of space to build. Scott is a blank slate and so is Tunney's (and LeBreton, and Bayview). Limiting this one to 12 floors isn't going to make the housing market worse than it is now.

No one wants to live on or off Scott street.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by shelltime

No one wants to live on or off Scott street.

And yet thousands will in the next few years.

In the Westboro end:

It isn't that bad. Open space to the north won't change much or soon, the next towers built there will be on Lanark: 210 Clearview will finally be built at some point by Homestead and eventually the Graham Spry building will be replaced with housing and given its location, I assume it will be quite high.

Just a long block south takes you to Richmond and the heart of Westboro.

The transitway is right on your doorstep at the moment, and the LRT will eventually be there.

Eventually we'll get the Westboro Beach back and the bike paths back and the area will return to being walkable (just with more of wind tunnel along Scott.)

At the Parkdale end:

Just one a couple of blocks to Wellington and Hintonburg trendiness. The new SirJAM parkland will have lots to offer. You are quick to downtown by bike or LRT or bus. You are close to the hospital but not right at it. You have the open space to the north (until Tunney's is redeveloped, certainly not in my lifetime).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Here comes the monolithic squatbox! It is the Ottawa Way.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...and-hintonburg

Article for those who face paywalls.

DEVELOPMENT: Council says no to contentious projects in Kanata North, Hintonburg

Joanne Laucius, Postmedia
Sep 21, 2022

Ottawa city council has shown its opposition to two proposed development projects — one in Kanata North and the other in Hintonburg.



Ottawa city council has shown its opposition to two proposed development projects — one in Kanata North and the other in Hintonburg.

The first is a proposal to build two four-storey residential buildings on Steacie Drive in an industrial business park in Kanata North. Council voted Wednesday to refuse the bylaw amendments that would allow the project to move ahead.

In the second case, council decided to instruct city lawyers to oppose the approval of the zoning and official plan amendments needed to make way for a 16-storey project at the corner of Wellington Street West at Parkdale Avenue with the Ontario Land Tribunal.

The city’s planning committee had already decided at a meeting on Sept. 9 to oppose the Kanata North project, even though a report from city staff had recommended it. City planners argued that the project, which included a total of 258 residential units and 206 parking spaces on a 2.24-hectare site, was consistent with the city’s official plan.

According to a staff report, the land is designated general urban in the official plan, which allows a wide variety of uses, including residential. But residents who attended public consultations indicated concerns about height, density and traffic.

“Council decided in 2019 to allow churches to be located in industrial and business settings. But people driving in and out of church services don’t end up living in a business park 24/7,” Kanata North Coun. Cathy Curry told fellow councillors on Wednesday.

There will be no sidewalks built in the foreseeable future, it takes a 600-metre walk to get to a transit stop, and the site is close to commercial and industrial land uses, Curry said.

“This will never be the kind of residential neighbourhood we as a council aspire to,” she said.

“Fundamentally, I believe that locating these two residential buildings in this industrial commercial setting was not a good long-term decision for future residents and families. Residents of this proposed development have little to no hope of seeing sidewalks built.”

Meanwhile, councillors also voted Wednesday to oppose the proposal for a 16-storey tower at the corner of Wellington St. West and Parkdale Avenue at the Ontario Land Tribunal, which adjudicates land use planning matters.

The development site at 1186, 1188 and 1194 Wellington St. West now includes a commercial building and the old Elmdale Theatre, now occupied by a church. The theatre building, opened in 1947, has a flat roof and marquee that wraps around the northwest corner of the building, which is currently listed on the city’s heritage register.

Both buildings would be demolished to make way for the new mixed-use project, which requires amendments to the official plan and zoning bylaw.

The original proposal was for an 18-storey building, but Welldale Limited Partnership, an affiliate of Minto Group, had revised the plan to 16 storeys in 2021. Planning staff had supported the proposal, saying it satisfies the intent of all relevant policies in the city’s current and new official plan.

The proposal exceeds the height restrictions of six storeys for the area, a limitation that can be stretched as high as nine storeys under circumstances where that might benefit the community, council heard. There were also concerns about the transition between high-rise and low-rise development in the neighbourhood.

Planning committee had deferred the item and asked the developer to come back with “something that was more suitable” for the corner. The developer chose not to return with a modified proposal, but went to the Ontario Land Tribunal within about a week and a half, said Coun. Jeff Leiper, who represents Kitchissippi Ward.

“I guess they saw too much daylight between what planning committee expressed as a concern and their own economic imperatives.”

Objections to the project included arguments that it doesn’t enhance or maintain the vitality of Wellington St. West as a main street, that it doesn’t promote active transportation and that its scale does not relate well to neighbouring properties.

The project has seen a case management conference at the Ontario Land Tribunal with another session scheduled for Sept. 28.

[postingaboutottawa]

Honestly until the city does something about Parkdale to reduce through traffic new developments can start somewhere else. Why can't the developer come back one more time with a 12-14 floor tower, lose a floor on the podium, break up the facade, and just maybe contribute a little more to the public realm.


Parkdale is a two-lane street being used as a regular bus route and is also the shortest connection between the parkway, scott, wellington, the 417 and carling. When i walked by this week around 11 am the entire stretch from scott to the 417 ramp except for the wellington intersection was bumper to bumper cars, trucks, and 9 (!) buses.

[J.OT13]

Yeah, Parkdale is pretty terrible. Can't even begin to figure out how to fix that.

Strange that's it's always Scott the the 417 and not Scott to the Parkway or the 417 to Carling, you know, where there are actual car oriented destinations. Fewer traffic lights maybe?

[waterloowarrior]

10 day OLT hearing in August 2023
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onlt/do...nlii93056.html

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

10 day OLT hearing in August 2023
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onlt/do...nlii93056.html

Does this one have staff support? If so, the City Council need to pay for outside representation and those files have a low rate of success by the City. Basically few expert witnesses in the City will want to take it on.

[J.OT13]

Yes, it had staff approval. I fully expect it to pass at the OLT.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

Side note 1: What is the difference between 12 storeys and 16 storeys? Unless your balcony counting you probably wouldn't even notice 4 extra floors as it's indistinguishable from street level. It's an arbitrary number and a ridiculous argument.

And the hysteria about the height, and the ready audience for that hysteria, is why anyone who wants to build a 12-storey building proposes an 18-storey one.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Yes, it had staff approval. I fully expect it to pass at the OLT.

I'm only aware of one example that wasn't successful in Westboro up against the transitway that I think has been reconfigured. City Council appointed expert witness (or maybe the guy hired by neighbours) beat the City experts and the owners consultants. (north end of Roosevelt). Many examples in Sandy Hill, Manotick, Preston area, Westboro where Council appointed experts have lost and cost the City lots of money

[rocketphish]

Updated (December 2022)

List of design changes responding to comments:
• Revised Wellington & Hamilton corner of the podium to reduce the visual crowding of the theatre corner.
• Introduced a 3 storey curved glazed feature with the same radius and dimensions of the existing theatre to better respond to the
existing form.
• Pulled back the masonry portion on Wellington to reduce visual crowding above the theatre corner.
• Introduced additional solid masonry portions on the Hamilton side of the podium to reduce the amount of overall glazing, as well as to
frame the corner element together with the revised masonry portion on Wellington.
• Further set back the podium corner on level 5 and 6 to give space to the theatre and curved feature below.
• Revised the materials used to better reflect the materials of the existing theatre and surrounding context, including the use of stainless
steel for the window frames and slab edges.

[Harley613]

Stunning design! Build build build! Good on Minto for recognizing the potential risk of the extra two floors to the neighbourhood. At 16 floors, no children will be killed by shadows and there will no more than half of the traffic an 18 floor building would have caused.

[Norman Bates]

It looks attractive and imaginative.

How refreshing for Nottawa!