PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

Why the opposition to the stadium? Wouldn't logic dictate that Reading Terminal and Chinatown would be flooded with patrons on game/event days? If Sixers are showing up with money and ready to sign agreements promising to be good neighbors - where is the problem? If I owned a restaurant and someone wanted to build an arena a block away, I'd be so freaking excited. What am I missing?

I don't see how this is supposedly going to bring a lot of business. Events bring surge traffic rather than constant flow. It will be an empty dead zone much of the year when nothing is scheduled. Restaurants have a maximum seating size and cooking throughput, there's only so much extra business they could get before and after a game /event before they hit capacity. Add in security and safety concerns after Asian Americans had been targets of violence for the past several years (and more) and the thought of thousands of drunk patrons from concerts or games let out at once onto the neighborhood causing havoc. Most people don't expect Philadelphians to behave and that's the worst case scenario many are thinking about.

[iheartphilly]

^
Realistic POV and commen sense reasoning!

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I'd rather see the building knocked down, but an apartment conversion is a big deal for West Market Street.

Alterra Property Group nears deal to acquire 1701 Market St., soon to be vacated by Morgan Lewis

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2022/12/15/alterra-1701-market.html

Alterra Property Group is nearing a deal to acquire 1701 Market St. with plans to convert the longtime Morgan Lewis & Bockius headquarters building into apartments, according to industry sources.

The 305,170-square-foot property in the heart of the Central Business District has been up for sale as Morgan Lewis plans to vacate the entire space and move five blocks west into a new 19-story building at 2222 Market St. in 2023.

The 18-story 1701 Market building is owned by an entity affiliated with LXP Industrial Trust (NYSE: LXP), previously known as Lexington Realty Trust. The New York company rebranded last year as it sheds its office portfolio to focus solely on industrial properties.

I would rather it torn down and replaced with something taller as well... but if they're doing a residential conversion then I'm OK with that too as long as they reclad it. It needs a recladding. No way they can leave as-is.... it's so unapologetically an office building from the 1950s

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by gjrip

Dang. well I would support making that portion of 8th a tunnel like the convention center does over 12th and 13th then. Build up a bit and add the width of the street and it might be big enough.

The LAST thing East Market needs is more "tunnel like" streets
That's a part of the problem of E Market.
There's much residential development happening in the area.
I would NOT want to live near an arena.
I have before
If only they had concentrated on the towers

Fashion District -East Market 2 by , on Flickr

Here's all the "tunnel like" streets there are @ E Market.
Philly's homeless shelters
Convention Center covered streets 3 by , on Flickr

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I don't see how this is supposedly going to bring a lot of business. Events bring surge traffic rather than constant flow. It will be an empty dead zone much of the year when nothing is scheduled. Restaurants have a maximum seating size and cooking throughput, there's only so much extra business they could get before and after a game /event before they hit capacity. Add in security and safety concerns after Asian Americans had been targets of violence for the past several years (and more) and the thought of thousands of drunk patrons from concerts or games let out at once onto the neighborhood causing havoc. Most people don't expect Philadelphians to behave and that's the worst case scenario many are thinking about.

I would like to know the % of city residents for/against v suburban residents for/against

[summersm343]

1. This isn't being built in Chinatown. It's being built in Market East/Center City East. I'm all for including surrounding neighbors to have input.... but any surrounding neighbors saying "we will oppose this no matter what".... yeah, no. So now we're going to allow these neighborhood groups to torpedo any development in OR outside of their neighborhood when they don't agree with it?

2. You can't deny this WON'T spur development across Market East. Anybody who believes it won't is kidding themselves. Look at every recent stadium built in urban areas across the country recently.

3. Nobody can possibly say Market East is fine as-is and should stay as-is. You have to be out of your mind if you think so. While I don't think Market East is NEARLY as bad as some people (including members of this forum) make it out to be, and there are some redeeming qualities about the area... it still needs a TON of help and a shot in the arm, ESPECIALLY along the south side of Market Street from 7th to 11th Street. The entire south side of the block is almost entirely empty/vacant and/or parking lot.

4. This compared to DC Chinatown is Apples to Oranges. Anyone trying to make an Apples-to-apples comparison here is just being completely deceitful and dishonest. DC Chinatown was a FEW blocks at MOST even before the stadium went there. DC Chinatown was declining and had declined into almost NOTHINGNESS well before the Arena was built there. The arena was just the nail in the coffin after the asian population had already mostly given up on DC Chinatown. Furthermore, the arena in DC was built IN their Chinatown and demolished buildings, residences and businesses IN Chinatown. The arena in Philadelphia is not located in Chinatown and is demolishing nothing related to Chinatown.

5. Chinatown in Philadelphia will only fail if the Asian population gives up on it. I don't see that happening. As long as the Asian population in the area continues to care about it being a thriving center of their culture in the region, it will thrive.

6. The solution is put a zoning overlay and historic district over Chinatown's actual neighborhood boundaries that require any development proposals go through the Chinatown neighborhood association. Boom, done. Chinatown protected. Make the overlay from Vine Street to the North, Arch Street/PA Convention Center to the South, Broad Street to the West and 6th Street to the East.

7. DC Chinatown was not only small, but it's a more expensive city to Philadelphia, a wealthier city, has a heigh limit, and is the seat of the US federal government which eats up a TON of land and office space in DC. Completely apples-to-oranges comparison here. Philadelphia has a TON of room to grow in and around Market East all around the stadium with no heigh limit and much less demand to fill buildings quickly.

8. It's Macerich's property to do with it what they wish. They seem to be all-in for the stadium. If Chinatown doesn't want it built then they need to get together and buy the property for several hundred million dollars from Macerich.

Sorry. I just don't buy the fear mongering. It's a little absurd.

[AnEmperorPenguin]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I don't know the latest specific complaint, but it's mostly virtue signaling nonsense combined with typical overdone resistance to change.

This stretch of Market is shabby at best and it is beyond me why some people are fiercely against this project... My suggestion is that the Sixers owners (and other entities) should also develop a comprehensive development plan for the stretch of Market from 8th-12th.

Separately, the same people that complained about the Gallery revamp (fearing it would turn into KoP) are now against the Sixers arena... Sometimes people just need to shut up...

AS far as I can tell the professional NIMBYS, er sorry, "community groups", have convinced people that this project involves demoing half of chinatown, because almost all of the complaints I've seen are just totally made up, or problems that would not be as bad as an abandoned failed mall

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Add in security and safety concerns after Asian Americans had been targets of violence for the past several years (and more) and the thought of thousands of drunk patrons from concerts or games let out at once onto the neighborhood causing havoc.

Hordes of drunk sixers fans are going to charge into chinatown to beat up asian people if this gets built? Jesus dude, get a grip

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. This isn't being built in Chinatown. It's being built in Market East/Center City East. I'm all for including surrounding neighbors to have input.... but any surrounding neighbors saying "we will oppose this no matter what".... yeah, no. So now we're going to allow these neighborhood groups to torpedo any development in OR outside of their neighborhood when they don't agree with it?

I think the hardcore ’oppose no matter what’ contingent is primarily Asian Americans United, just one of a plethora civic and business groups, but certainly the loudest. To try to win AAU’s non-opposition would be an exercise in futility. I believe they may have been the primary organizer of last night’s meeting, although on their fb page they list 24 orgs as hosts for the meeting. Yikes, so many fragmented constituencies to satisfy! Their facebook post includes a 2½ hour archived stream of the meeting for your viewing pleasure.

https://www.facebook.com/AsianAmericansUnited/videos/552441016357282

The meeting is hosted by 24 Chinatown community organizations including:
Asian Americans United
Concerned Citizens of Chinatown Association
Changle Association of Greater Philadelphia
Philadelphia Hoyu Chinese American Association
On Leong Association
Pennsylvania United Chinese Coalition
Chinese Restaurant Association of Greater Philadelphia
Philadelphia Suns
Philadelphia Chinatown Dragon Boat Team
Asian Pacific Islander Political Alliance (API PA)
Folk Arts-Cultural Treasures Charter School
Students for the Preservation of Chinatown
Hoyu Chinese Folk Culture Center
Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance, AFL-CIO (Philadelphia)
Asian Arts Initiative
Greater Philadelphia Fujian Association
Hok Shan Association
Greater Philadelphia United Chinese American Chamber of Commerce
Guangxi Association of Pennsylvania
Greater Philadelphia Lianjiang Association
Philadelphia Chinese Opera Society
Chinese Northeast Association of USA
American Philadelphia Chinese Women Association
Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund

It’s noted in the Billy Penn piece that four orgs — who met previously with 76Devcorp and who have formed a steering committee to work on a Community Benefits Agreement — were invited but did not attend last night, further angering people at the meeting.

https://billypenn.com/2022/12/14/chinatown-sixers-arena-community-meeting-pushback/

Four Chinatown business organizations that recently formed a steering committee to evaluate the Sixers’ eventual community benefits agreement were not part of planning this event.

They were invited by the meeting’s organizers to attend to answer questions during the event, but did not. After this was announced, cries of “bullshit” rose from many in attendance.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Add in security and safety concerns after Asian Americans had been targets of violence for the past several years (and more) and the thought of thousands of drunk patrons from concerts or games let out at once onto the neighborhood causing havoc.

Yeah, I thought everyone knew by now that the violence being committed toward Asians is largely being perpetrated by vagrants and low lifes. Probably not ticket paying sixers fan. I’m sorry, but that is just an insane excuse.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yeah, I thought everyone knew by now that the violence being committed toward Asians is largely being perpetrated by vagrants and low lifes. Probably not ticket paying sixers fan. I’m sorry, but that is just an insane excuse.

It's still a concern of theirs, and crowd control should absolutely be addressed. Note all kinds of events and concerts would be held here that would draw different audiences, it's not all about the basketball fans in particular

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

It's still a concern of theirs, and crowd control should absolutely be addressed. Note all kinds of events and concerts would be held here that would draw different audiences, it's not all about the basketball fans in particular

It's always under control, when does the South Philly complex get out of control?

They have security and police always stationed around the stadiums as well as police controlling intersections to let traffic flow.

Also do majority of people know what happens to Market street during the week after 9?

ITS DEAD, majority of everything is closed, and there is no traffic. So I don't know who will be affected by Market St being used, Thats the purpose of it.

The only time Market St is packed at all times is Friday-Sunday. 3 days out the week.

In fact if you want an idea of how a crowd reacts look at what happens when the convention center disperses events, some people go home, some people go to the bar, some people go to restaurants, and some people hang around idly. Nothing is destroyed, and the city is alive.

Matter of fact, why aren't we talking about the amount of space, and impact the convention center has on Chinatown? blocks of tunnels and a massive wall that provides the area with no good use other then a big space for conventions.

That damages Chinatown way more than an Arena 2 blocks from Chinatown in our entertainment district.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I don't see how this is supposedly going to bring a lot of business. Events bring surge traffic rather than constant flow. It will be an empty dead zone much of the year when nothing is scheduled. Restaurants have a maximum seating size and cooking throughput, there's only so much extra business they could get before and after a game /event before they hit capacity. Add in security and safety concerns after Asian Americans had been targets of violence for the past several years (and more) and the thought of thousands of drunk patrons from concerts or games let out at once onto the neighborhood causing havoc. Most people don't expect Philadelphians to behave and that's the worst case scenario many are thinking about.

There will be nothing 'surge' about a downtown venue like this. It will host concerts, tournaments, etc. It will probably be activated at least 3 nights a week on average.

Even looking at the schedule for Barclays Center in Brooklyn, it has programming scheduled for 12 nights in January. 13 in February. 14 in March. That's roughly between 35 and 50 percent occupancy.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

There will be nothing 'surge' about a downtown venue like this. It will host concerts, tournaments, etc. It will probably be activated at least 3 nights a week on average.

And the rest of the days? That's what I mean, and the only time people are potentially on foot (if not taking trains) is before the event and after the event. That is a surge of maybe a half hour on each end, not a constant activation of the street. People say look at the convention center, okay, yeah it's a dead zone most of the time, that's not a positive comparison. I just don't see it.

Originally Posted by TonyTone

It's always under control, when does the South Philly complex get out of control?

They have security and police always stationed around the stadiums as well as police controlling intersections to let traffic flow.

Uh, obviously. There's nothing around but highways and parking lots. The comparison here is disingenuous, and also why many people want the sports to stay where they are. The city has very little experience in crowds dumping into Center City on foot beyond like the flower show. Police are already stretched thin and barely functional.

More mixed use towers is what Market East needs. That's really the only difference between this area and better off areas of CC. The gallery needs to be replaced but with active, mixed use, urban fabric.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

And the rest of the days? That's what I mean, and the only time people are potentially on foot (if not taking trains) is before the event and after the event. That is a surge of maybe a half hour on each end, not a constant activation of the street. People say look at the convention center, okay, yeah it's a dead zone most of the time, that's not a positive comparison. I just don't see it..

What? People will come early to eat out, stay late to eat or have a drink.

Also, I'm not "people" I never said anything about the Convention Center I said compare it to BARCLAYS CENTER IN BROOKLYN.

This conversation is numbing my brain.

"Surge" events may seem like a gimic to you but they are pure profit events for business owners. Retailers generally make their years depending on the outcome of "surge" events like holidays etc. There's an old saying that the retailers generally don't become profitable until Thanksgiving/Black Friday. That's not exactly true, but the point is the additional revenue due to that one 'event' is what can get a retailer over the top for the year.

It actually boggles my mind that the community is fighting this. This development will be EXCEPTIONALLY beneficial for Chinatown's business owners.

In fact, they probably stand to benefit more than anyone else out of this entire thing.

It doesn't surprise me that it's the Chinese Business Associations that didn't attend that event. Their heads seem to be on straight.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. This isn't being built in Chinatown. It's being built in Market East/Center City East. I'm all for including surrounding neighbors to have input.... but any surrounding neighbors saying "we will oppose this no matter what".... yeah, no. So now we're going to allow these neighborhood groups to torpedo any development in OR outside of their neighborhood when they don't agree with it?

2. You can't deny this WON'T spur development across Market East. Anybody who believes it won't is kidding themselves. Look at every recent stadium built in urban areas across the country recently.

3. Nobody can possibly say Market East is fine as-is and should stay as-is. You have to be out of your mind if you think so. While I don't think Market East is NEARLY as bad as some people (including members of this forum) make it out to be, and there are some redeeming qualities about the area... it still needs a TON of help and a shot in the arm, ESPECIALLY along the south side of Market Street from 7th to 11th Street. The entire south side of the block is almost entirely empty/vacant and/or parking lot.

4. This compared to DC Chinatown is Apples to Oranges. Anyone trying to make an Apples-to-apples comparison here is just being completely deceitful and dishonest. DC Chinatown was a FEW blocks at MOST even before the stadium went there. DC Chinatown was declining and had declined into almost NOTHINGNESS well before the Arena was built there. The arena was just the nail in the coffin after the asian population had already mostly given up on DC Chinatown. Furthermore, the arena in DC was built IN their Chinatown and demolished buildings, residences and businesses IN Chinatown. The arena in Philadelphia is not located in Chinatown and is demolishing nothing related to Chinatown.

5. Chinatown in Philadelphia will only fail if the Asian population gives up on it. I don't see that happening. As long as the Asian population in the area continues to care about it being a thriving center of their culture in the region, it will thrive.

6. The solution is put a zoning overlay and historic district over Chinatown's actual neighborhood boundaries that require any development proposals go through the Chinatown neighborhood association. Boom, done. Chinatown protected. Make the overlay from Vine Street to the North, Arch Street/PA Convention Center to the South, Broad Street to the West and 6th Street to the East.

7. DC Chinatown was not only small, but it's a more expensive city to Philadelphia, a wealthier city, has a heigh limit, and is the seat of the US federal government which eats up a TON of land and office space in DC. Completely apples-to-oranges comparison here. Philadelphia has a TON of room to grow in and around Market East all around the stadium with no heigh limit and much less demand to fill buildings quickly.

8. It's Macerich's property to do with it what they wish. They seem to be all-in for the stadium. If Chinatown doesn't want it built then they need to get together and buy the property for several hundred million dollars from Macerich.

Sorry. I just don't buy the fear mongering. It's a little absurd.

Can we pin this to the top of the thread because it's perfect. No one is coming to save Market East. It's made a lot of progress in the last 15 years but it's still a dump. I think it'll get better slowly but never to the point it's not a rough area. Build the arena and force the whole Philadelphia region to spend their money in market east and support Septa/Patco while doing so. Remember what tourists see when they walk from the hotels (Marriott and Loews) to Independence Mall...

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Build the arena and force the whole Philadelphia region to spend their money in market east and support Septa/Patco while doing so.

Speaking of this: expect an announcement that will benefit future stadium attendees taking SEPTA soon. It should be announced within the next week or so.

[reparcsyks]

Major announcement? Can we expect digital trading cards of SEPTA executives? LOL

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

What? People will come early to eat out, stay late to eat or have a drink.

Also, I'm not "people" I never said anything about the Convention Center I said compare it to BARCLAYS CENTER IN BROOKLYN.

This conversation is numbing my brain.

"Surge" events may seem like a gimic to you but they are pure profit events for business owners. Retailers generally make their years depending on the outcome of "surge" events like holidays etc. There's an old saying that the retailers generally don't become profitable until Thanksgiving/Black Friday. That's not exactly true, but the point is the additional revenue due to that one 'event' is what can get a retailer over the top for the year.

It actually boggles my mind that the community is fighting this. This development will be EXCEPTIONALLY beneficial for Chinatown's business owners.

In fact, they probably stand to benefit more than anyone else out of this entire thing.

It doesn't surprise me that it's the Chinese Business Associations that didn't attend that event. Their heads seem to be on straight.

In the end, the 76s can do whatever the hell they want, no?

The uproar here is so comically misplaced it's ridiculous. This will do nothing but cement this ailing section of the city into a premier destination. Hotels will follow and likely this would spur the development of the largest urban parking lot on the East Coast. Certain upgrades in retail along that stretch - from walnut to vine - would follow. This development alone could do more to make this city into the "24 hour" city everyone is hoping for than anything. You know....like the other world class city everyone compares Philly to as a punchline.

This development would turn Chinatown into a powerhouse and ensure the fortunes of those businesses in Chinatown. You're complaining about foot traffic? Seriously? What are you even talking about? Why the hail would you be opposed to that?! Isn't that the idea of having a business in the city? The foot traffic?

People will b!tch and moan about anything in this town. I swear. Were these groups up in a rage when the gallery was being done? That proposal was done with the false assumption that it alone would bring an increase of shoppers to the area. Were they opposing that?!

Someone needs to help these people understand. Or not. Like I said, the 76ers can do whatever they want, AFAIK.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. This isn't being built in Chinatown. It's being built in Market East/Center City East. I'm all for including surrounding neighbors to have input.... but any surrounding neighbors saying "we will oppose this no matter what".... yeah, no. So now we're going to allow these neighborhood groups to torpedo any development in OR outside of their neighborhood when they don't agree with it?

2. You can't deny this WON'T spur development across Market East. Anybody who believes it won't is kidding themselves. Look at every recent stadium built in urban areas across the country recently.

3. Nobody can possibly say Market East is fine as-is and should stay as-is. You have to be out of your mind if you think so. While I don't think Market East is NEARLY as bad as some people (including members of this forum) make it out to be, and there are some redeeming qualities about the area... it still needs a TON of help and a shot in the arm, ESPECIALLY along the south side of Market Street from 7th to 11th Street. The entire south side of the block is almost entirely empty/vacant and/or parking lot.

4. This compared to DC Chinatown is Apples to Oranges. Anyone trying to make an Apples-to-apples comparison here is just being completely deceitful and dishonest. DC Chinatown was a FEW blocks at MOST even before the stadium went there. DC Chinatown was declining and had declined into almost NOTHINGNESS well before the Arena was built there. The arena was just the nail in the coffin after the asian population had already mostly given up on DC Chinatown. Furthermore, the arena in DC was built IN their Chinatown and demolished buildings, residences and businesses IN Chinatown. The arena in Philadelphia is not located in Chinatown and is demolishing nothing related to Chinatown.

5. Chinatown in Philadelphia will only fail if the Asian population gives up on it. I don't see that happening. As long as the Asian population in the area continues to care about it being a thriving center of their culture in the region, it will thrive.

6. The solution is put a zoning overlay and historic district over Chinatown's actual neighborhood boundaries that require any development proposals go through the Chinatown neighborhood association. Boom, done. Chinatown protected. Make the overlay from Vine Street to the North, Arch Street/PA Convention Center to the South, Broad Street to the West and 6th Street to the East.

7. DC Chinatown was not only small, but it's a more expensive city to Philadelphia, a wealthier city, has a heigh limit, and is the seat of the US federal government which eats up a TON of land and office space in DC. Completely apples-to-oranges comparison here. Philadelphia has a TON of room to grow in and around Market East all around the stadium with no heigh limit and much less demand to fill buildings quickly.

8. It's Macerich's property to do with it what they wish. They seem to be all-in for the stadium. If Chinatown doesn't want it built then they need to get together and buy the property for several hundred million dollars from Macerich.

Sorry. I just don't buy the fear mongering. It's a little absurd.

[iheartphilly]

https://www.dsedov.io/src/slb.pdf

good read about sports facility, especially a basketball stadium and its effects to local businesses.