Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I grew up in suburbia. So did most of us I'd wager. Was it boring? Sometimes. But I think I took for granted the massive yard we had and the natural parks that were nearby. I don't consider myself to be a boring, anesthetized human because of where I grew up.

I do

(me and O-tacular are actual friends)

[niwell]

Yeah most of us are middle class suburban kids I think. I know I am, though at this point I’ve lived more than half my life in the city.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I'm in-between you two. I definitely do believe suburbia makes it much harder to have a unique lifestyle, be self-fulfilled, raise interesting kids, etc. You're pretty much confined to a (to me, soul-sucking) existence of driving from work to home to extracurricular activities. Anything more than that requires some significant planning, compared to just throwing open the front door and having a city at your doorstep.

....

But there is a difference between being 30 minutes from Toronto and 30 minutes from St. John's. A kid in Mississauga is going to be immeasurably more worldly to start, more consciously anti-racist (or racist, I guess, could go either way but they're not going to be as inexperienced as kids here), on and on.

I just think living and/or growing up in urban or rural areas is better for all involved, and suburbia stunts too much experience and enjoyment to be worth it.

I've had a ton of opportunities to travel the breadth of our great country in my military career. And in my experience the similarities between suburbanites in particular is striking in its homogeneity. This is in no small part thanks to the fact that suburban development itself is entirely driven by the same tendencies and interests everywhere. Same builders. Same chains. Same retailers. Etc. This video comes to mind:

• Video Link

You could say that being 30 mins from downtown St. John's is very different than being 30 mins from downtown Toronto. My response to that is that 30 mins from the centre of St.John's gets you in a far more suburban or exurban setting than 30 mins from Toronto. That's the difference. Compare similar level of urbanity and you'll find that lifestyles are quite similar. What is unique about TMV is that they have large urban cores and large inner suburbs. So you can have lots of people living an urbanish lifestyle. In most other cities, you go from urban to suburban within say 2-3 km city hall, yet people will pretend that a whole lot of their city is "urban" despite it being fairly suburban by TMV standards. I think this is where the mix up in city characters comes from. IMHO people mix up the fact that smaller cities are far more suburban for just having substantially different character. But look around. Subdivisions look the same. The restaurant and retail chains are the same. Heck, even the play structures in the park are often the same.

So it rather surprises me that she found her lifestyle very different from living near Square One to living in Edmonton. The area near Square one (quite familiar cause my brother lived there till 2 years ago) is hardly some walkable urban hood. It's towers along a traffic ewer with subdivisions behind them centered on a giant mall. A good chunk of Edmonton is pretty close to this. Buildings might be smaller and the subdivisions bigger. But really the lifestyle is the same. So for her to say that it's just not the urban paradise of Toronto is both ignorant and offensive. Especially after she chose to basically double down on the suburbanesque lifestyle she already had in Mississauga by going to an even more suburban situation. Added bonus is playing up the image of a snobby Torontonian who thinks other places aren't "real cities" while hailing from.... Mississauga.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Wait a minute: a black person in the GTA is far more likely to have grown up outside of the city of Toronto than in it.

At this point anyone in the GTA is more likely to be living outside the city but I'm not sure if that means they grew up outside of Toronto. Also not sure why you're singling out black people since that statement holds true for most groups, but less so for black people. 54% of black people in the GTA live within the 416, compared to 40% of the general population.

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I'd love to live in the inner city but simply can't afford to. Even less so now with 2 kids. My riding consistently votes conservative but I certainly don't. There are trends, but to tar everyone living in a suburb the same way is kind of offensive. Sharing a neighbourhood does not make me the same as, say, some redneck with a $60k lifted pickup truck whose hobbies include quadding and drinking liberal tears with their Tim Horton's double double.

By the same token, its a bit offensive to label everyone that drives a $60k lifted pickup truck and enjoys a side of liberal tears with their double double as a "redneck" conservative. Those tears could be their own.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by theman23

At this point anyone in the GTA is more likely to be living outside the city but I'm not sure if that means they grew up outside of Toronto. Also not sure why you're singling out black people since that statement holds true for most groups, but less so for black people. 54% of black people in the GTA live within the 416, compared to 40% of the general population.



By the same token, its a bit offensive to label everyone that drives a $60k lifted pickup truck and enjoys a side of liberal tears with their double double as a "redneck" conservative. Those tears could be their own.

Well I was describing a very real demographic that is quite well represented in my city and riding. I am less likely to judge someone driving an old pickup truck, or a beat up pickup truck, or a work truck or even a standard truck that isn't 10 feet tall and only drives on city streets, never even using the bed of the truck to haul anything.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by theman23

At this point anyone in the GTA is more likely to be living outside the city but I'm not sure if that means they grew up outside of Toronto. Also not sure why you're singling out black people since that statement holds true for most groups, but less so for black people. 54% of black people in the GTA live within the 416, compared to 40% of the general population.

The woman in the Toronto Life article is black, and you said she probably grew up in Toronto. But I was imprecise in my meaning. I still have trouble thinking of Scarborough as being part of the city of Toronto, stupidly enough.



I guess my point is that the vast majority of blacks in Toronto live outside of that red area, and that everything outside of the old city is suburban in nature. Scarborough and the independent city of Mississauga are the same type of suburban environment, so moving from one to the other is a lateral transfer, not a promotion/demotion in terms of urbanness.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

In addition to the supply/red tape/development charge problems we've discussed at length, I would place a lot of the blame on overleveraged mortgagers passing along the sins of their bloated mortgages to renters.

That's not how rent works. Landlords will charge as much as they can in the market, regardless of their own mortgage, or lack thereof.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by casper

I see the problem. Cactus Club locations in Edmonton are somewhat suburban. West Edmonton Mall is not quite the same vibe of a Cactus Club in downtown Vancouver..

What vibe is that? Early Twenties douchebag?

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I do

(me and O-tacular are actual friends)

Ouch!

[WhipperSnapper]

My address growing up was in Toronto. I don't know when I started taking the streetcar to school on my own. Definitely was only 9 or 10 when we used to take the subway to Kipling and back. I would be charged if I had given the same freedoms to my daughter as I had as elementary school student to travel the city unsupervised. A kid's experiences growing up in the city today probably aren't much different from those in suburbia. They are driven or walked ... killing two birds ... with the family dog to supervised play dates, activities, etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Scarborough and the independent city of Mississauga are the same type of suburban environment, so moving from one to the other is a lateral transfer, not a promotion/demotion in terms of urbanness.

I would have agreed with this 15-20 years ago. But about that time Scarborough started growing up while Mississauga kept growing out. Thinking about it on a spectrum, I think of Scarborough as somewhere like a quarter of the way between downtown and Mississauga on the urban spectrum. The equivalent to Mississauga on the other side would really be Markham and Pickering.

Moreover when I think of the experience itself? Never known anybody in 'sauga who took the bus regularly. In Scarborough, kids used to value that student card (pre-Presto). Every kid I knew growing up in the 905 was driven everywhere. Parents couldn't give them a ride? They stayed home. In the 416? Every kid I knew took the bus to something. Karate, school, library, etc. Getting a ride somewhere was a bonus. Not a pre-requisite.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I guess my point is that the vast majority of blacks in Toronto live outside of that red area, and that everything outside of the old city is suburban in nature. Scarborough and the independent city of Mississauga are the same type of suburban environment, so moving from one to the other is a lateral transfer, not a promotion/demotion in terms of urbanness.

I’d still say there’s a fair bit of difference between Scarborough and Mississauga. Despite similarities in built form, Scarborough has a decent amount of pedestrian traffic and people are waiting at every bus stop. You don’t have to check schedules because the TTC will be there at any major intersection within 5 minutes. It’s a different vibe.

There’s still a big albeit decreasing Caribbean presence along Eglinton west, which is fairly urban despite parts of it being technically in East York. Then again EY was more or less built out prior to 1950.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The woman in the Toronto Life article is black, and you said she probably grew up in Toronto. But I was imprecise in my meaning. I still have trouble thinking of Scarborough as being part of the city of Toronto, stupidly enough.



I guess my point is that the vast majority of blacks in Toronto live outside of that red area, and that everything outside of the old city is suburban in nature. Scarborough and the independent city of Mississauga are the same type of suburban environment, so moving from one to the other is a lateral transfer, not a promotion/demotion.

I was just going along with the meaning True North was using, but I have to admit that I did snicker when he appropriated the use of "Torontonian" to include his own Scarborough upbringing.

I'd agree that the feel in Mississauga is not that different from Scarborough. I wonder how often people in this thread actually go out to the 905? Perhaps Doady can back this up with some actual statistics, but from my anecdotal observations transit use appear to be quite high. Most buses appear to be travelling pretty full and there's a decent amount of infrastructure having been built in the last 10 years or so to keep pedestrians from getting killed by cars.

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

What vibe is that? Early Twenties douchebag?

I think the sums up the "Entertainment district" of the West Edmonton Mall. I have actually been there for dinner a few times on business trips. Mall corridor with big-box restaurant chains on both size. Maybe a dozen.

Very "international" and "cosmopolitan" vibe with Jimmy the Greek, the Spaghetti Factory, and Harvey's as the star venues, I have also done the British pub and Moxies that are in the same hallway.

Nothing comparable to it in Vancouver and for good reason.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by theman23

I was just going along with the meaning True North was using, but I have to admit that I did snicker when he appropriated the use of "Torontonian" to include his own Scarborough upbringing.

Snicker if you must. I wouldn't argue that I had some hyper urban upbringing and that this experience gives me the right to look down on similar environments in other cities.

I pointed out the difference mostly because that chick seems rather insistent that Edmonton was lacking urbanity. A rather bold claim if you're moving from near Square One. If she's going to make that claim while living outside TTC coverage, I think it's fair game to call it out.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So it rather surprises me that she found her lifestyle very different from living near Square One to living in Edmonton. The area near Square one (quite familiar cause my brother lived there till 2 years ago) is hardly some walkable urban hood. It's towers along a traffic ewer with subdivisions behind them centered on a giant mall. A good chunk of Edmonton is pretty close to this. Buildings might be smaller and the subdivisions bigger. But really the lifestyle is the same. So for her to say that it's just not the urban paradise of Toronto is both ignorant and offensive.

I don't want to presume anything, but I don't think she equates the "big city" with urban planning metrics like built form, walk score and transit mode share.

I think she thinks a city is big because it offers an abundance of entertainment options she likes, even if those things are in strip malls.

I don't want to defend her too much, because it's kind of a lame article, but the view I mentioned above is probably more prevalent than ours. This is especially true for immigrants from countries where dense, walkable areas are nothing special and the shiny new luxury mall and office tower complex on the edge of the city is the thing of pride. Most of the developing world is like this.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would have agreed with this 15-20 years ago. But about that time Scarborough started growing up while Mississauga kept growing out. Thinking about it on a spectrum, I think of Scarborough as somewhere like a quarter of the way between downtown and Mississauga on the urban spectrum. The equivalent to Mississauga on the other side would really be Markham and Pickering.

Moreover when I think of the experience itself? Never known anybody in 'sauga who took the bus regularly. In Scarborough, kids used to value that student card (pre-Presto). Every kid I knew growing up in the 905 was driven everywhere. Parents couldn't give them a ride? They stayed home. In the 416? Every kid I knew took the bus to something. Karate, school, library, etc. Getting a ride somewhere was a bonus. Not a pre-requisite.

I'd agree with your assessment. Scarborough feels a bit more urban than 'Sauga and an extension of old Toronto proper, with TTC access through bus and train to downtown Toronto versus GO. Most Scarborough kids are probably accustomed to using public transit, where I'd assume the vast majority of kids in Mississauga are used to traveling almost everywhere by car.
___________
As for the woman featured in Toronto Life, the house she bought was apparently located in Leduc, which anyone familiar with Alberta knows is effing far. Leduc is like the size of Milton from the late 90s. Boring AF.

It's like a 35 minute drive to the diverse entertainment and food options of Whyte Ave, and almost 45 minutes to the heart of downtown Edmonton crazy she didn't do any due diligence apparently.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Snicker if you must. I wouldn't argue that I had some hyper urban upbringing and that this experience gives me the right to look down on similar environments in other cities.

I pointed out the difference mostly because that chick seems rather insistent that Edmonton was lacking urbanity. A rather bold claim if you're moving from near Square One. If she's going to make that claim while living outside TTC coverage, I think it's fair game to call it out.

Truenorth, I hope you realize I only poked fun at Scarborough because it was tract home 'Scarberia' back when my Pops resided in Toronto, and not the diverse and vibrant 650,000+ part of Toronto it's been for 24 years

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I'd agree with your assessment. Scarborough feels a bit more urban than 'Sauga and an extension of old Toronto proper, with TTC access through bus and train to downtown Toronto versus GO. Most Scarborough kids are probably accustomed to using public transit, where I'd assume the vast majority of kids in Mississauga are used to traveling almost everywhere by car.

In my experience the only people who claim Scarborough and Mississauga are the same are the people from Mississauga. LOL. And occasionally the old downtowner who looks down on Scarberians (memories of Jack Layton fighting against the first Downtown Relief Line).

Originally Posted by Wigs

As for the woman featured in Toronto Life, the house she bought was apparently located in Leduc, which anyone familiar with Alberta knows is effing far. Leduc is like the size of Milton from the late 90s. Boring AF.

It's like a 35 minute drive to the diverse entertainment and food options of Whyte Ave, and almost 45 minutes to the heart of downtown Edmonton crazy she didn't do any due diligence apparently.

Going to guess somebody told her that Leduc was the Mississauga of Edmonton. And then she got there and discovered it was more like the Milton of Edmonton.....

Either way the digs against Edmonton are uncalled for.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

This is especially true for immigrants from countries where dense, walkable areas are nothing special and the shiny new luxury mall and office tower complex on the edge of the city is the thing of pride. Most of the developing world is like this.

I would caution against this view being universal. I have a ton of family in Mumbai. When they visit my family in Scarborough? They complain that it's boring and that they have to ride transit for sooooo long to get to stuff. By contrast the cities they love are New York, London, Istanbul, etc. I get the whole "shiny new" syndrome that pervades a lot of the developing world. But a lot of that is also because their experiences with cities is usually not very pleasant. If you are middle class from a major city in Asia or Latin America, good chance you might actually appreciate and prefer a proper shopping street to a mall.