Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is a great example of what can be done in a lot of neighbourhoods:

https://twitter.com/BradMBradford/status/1602753321839755265?t=7RdrEZr-oOTdqcapEjcExA&s=19

I challenge anybody to argue this is going to substantially change the character of their neighbourhood.

My sister lived in a "house" near Downtown Toronto. From the front, it looks like another house from the same age as the rest of the older houses. Inside, there are 3 floors of 7 1 bedroom apartments. They effectively added an apartment building onto the back of the old house.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is a great example of what can be done in a lot of neighbourhoods:

https://twitter.com/BradMBradford/status/1602753321839755265?t=7RdrEZr-oOTdqcapEjcExA&s=19

I challenge anybody to argue this is going to substantially change the character of their neighbourhood.

This is really just a return to the norm for Toronto. On any given pre-war block like this there's going to be a mix of single-family, duplexes, triplexes, and 4+ unit buildings. Looking at them from the street, you'd never be able to tell which is which:


https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/downtown-toronto-houses.html


It's also just such a versatile housing form, that those mixtures have changed over time as demand & needs change - some multi-unit buildings get converted to luxury single-family dwellings, while other single-family ones get broken up into apartments or split into multi-generational households. IMO, we could still go a bit denser with new builds in low-rise neighbourhoods like this though - even up to 4 or 5 storeys wouldn't really have a detrimental impact on the neighbourhood character, while adding a whole lot more density.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

This is really just a return to the norm for Toronto. On any given pre-war block like this there's going to be a mix of single-family, duplexes, triplexes, and 4+ unit buildings. Looking at them from the street, you'd never be able to tell which is which:


https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/downtown-toronto-houses.html


It's also just such a versatile housing form, that those mixtures have changed over time - some multi-unit buildings get converted to luxury single-family dwellings, while other single-family ones get broken up into apartments or split into multi-generational households. IMO, we could still go a bit denser with new builds in low-rise neighbourhoods like this though - even up to 4 or 5 storeys wouldn't really have a detrimental impact on the neighbourhood character, while adding a whole lot more density.

Funny thing is, this is exactly how the street my sister I mentioned above looks.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

This is really just a return to the norm for Toronto. On any given pre-war block like this there's going to be a mix of single-family, duplexes, triplexes, and 4+ unit buildings. Looking at them from the street, you'd never be able to tell which is which...

Like I said earlier, most of what urbanists clamour for that is really just returning to pre-war (and pre-auto) development. The irony here is that modern urbanists are really just urban traditionalists.

[goodgrowth]

Not sure the "recycle, reduce, reuse" mentality towards housing supply is necessarily great for Toronto's situation.

It's great for pricey granola hipsterdom though.

[Truenorth00]

^ I fail to see how the example provided is bad. One old house got turned into 3 apartments: one 4 bedroom and two 2 bedrooms. Two additional families can now live in the same neighbourhood. This is bad for Toronto? How?

[niwell]

Literally every place I've lived in Toronto (6, I think) has been in that kind of set up. It's usually one of the more affordable types of rental in the core. Currently on the 2nd floor of a 3 storey semi with 3 units. The semi next door was just renovated and still has 3 units, however they added extra bedrooms.

[Hali87]

That is effective in the sense that some proportion of Toronto Bay-and-Gables (for example) will always be divided into flats while others will be "whole-house units" (whether owner-occupied or rented as such). If currently 50% have ~3 units and 50% are just 1 unit, then splitting more of them into flats adds units, even if a lot of them are already like that.

The split-into-flats setup is also very common in Halifax already - about 80% of the SFHs and semis on my street contain 2-6 separate units. While you do still see SFHs being divided into flats here, the opposite is common as well - someone taking a 4-flat "house" and consolidating it back into a single-unit house. Currently I think the trend here is more strongly "flats being consolidated" than "houses being split", which compounds the serious problems here with rental availability.

Splitting the house into flats adds more units but generally not more space (unless there are other renos) - so making ~100% of SFHs in a given area into flats is good for small households but not for large/multigenerational families. Especially since most multi-unit buildings aren't going to have anything with more than 3 bedrooms (and are often just bachelor, 1br and 2br).

Another issue is parking/roadspace. Using my street as an example again, every 2-4 units has about 1 vehicle's worth of driveway space, and even with bumper-to-bumper on-street parking (which it often is), there isn't enough space to accommodate 1 vehicle per unit (let alone 1 vehicle per working adult). It's already an area where car ownership is quite low (it's walkable and relatively close to downtown/universities) but if tomorrow I needed to buy a vehicle for work, there would be nowhere to park it overnight, at my own place or even "nearby", unless I could find a neighbour who was willing to let me use/rent their driveway. It's normal for delivery drivers to have to just leave their vehicle in the middle of the (1 lane, bidirectional) street while they saunter to the house, or block people's driveways - this happens many times every single day.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

^bingo. Ubiquitous.

I don't understand this woman from the Toronto Life article at all (then again Toronto Life has all sorts of dumb anecdotes like this featured)

She's not a — in the City gal, just another suburban GTAer pretending they're living their best inner city Toronto life... While living next to Square One in Mississauga.

She could have just rented an apartment or condo near Whyte Ave but she bought a house way out in Edmonton's new suburbs she really couldn't justify without taking on a roommate to help pay the mortgage.

And 33 is midlife crisis? Guess she plans on being dead between 65-70 years old

It sounds like she did no due diligence at all.

[niwell]

It’s a Toronto life hate read article. Designed not so much to malign Edmonton but get urban torontonians angry at someone who would go to — cactus club 5x a week.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I don't understand this woman from the Toronto Life article at all (then again Toronto Life has all sorts of dumb anecdotes like this featured)

She's not a — in the City gal, just another suburban GTAer pretending their living their best inner city Toronto life... While living next to Square One in Mississauga.

As someone who grew up in Scarborough, I've always found it hilarious how people who don't live within TTC coverage and whose primary way of getting downtown is GO, call themselves Torontonians and seem to see themselves as urbane.

She didn't miss Toronto the city. She barely knows it. She missed a handful of drinking buddies at a downtown bar she'd hit up before grabbing the GO Train. Turning that into judgement of Edmonton is just gross. I'm going to guess she's the kind of person who would also have judgments of actual Torontonians, if they don't come from a moneyed neighbourhood of the 416. At least she's doing all her future dates a favour with this piece. Can't say they weren't warned.....

[urbandreamer]

Downtown Leduc is more like Port Credit. But she probably bought a — new grey and beige shack above a garage on the SE side of town. Overall, Mississauga reminds me more of Calgary than Edmonton. Airdrie would've been a better fit.

She'll end up in Cambridge or Brantford, married to a blue collar dude lol.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

That is effective in the sense that some proportion of Toronto Bay-and-Gables (for example) will always be divided into flats while others will be "whole-house units" (whether owner-occupied or rented as such). If currently 50% have ~3 units and 50% are just 1 unit, then splitting more of them into flats adds units, even if a lot of them are already like that.

The split-into-flats setup is also very common in Halifax already - about 80% of the SFHs and semis on my street contain 2-6 separate units. While you do still see SFHs being divided into flats here, the opposite is common as well - someone taking a 4-flat "house" and consolidating it back into a single-unit house. Currently I think the trend here is more strongly "flats being consolidated" than "houses being split", which compounds the serious problems here with rental availability.

Splitting the house into flats adds more units but generally not more space (unless there are other renos) - so making ~100% of SFHs in a given area into flats is good for small households but not for large/multigenerational families. Especially since most multi-unit buildings aren't going to have anything with more than 3 bedrooms (and are often just bachelor, 1br and 2br).

Another issue is parking/roadspace. Using my street as an example again, every 2-4 units has about 1 vehicle's worth of driveway space, and even with bumper-to-bumper on-street parking (which it often is), there isn't enough space to accommodate 1 vehicle per unit (let alone 1 vehicle per working adult). It's already an area where car ownership is quite low (it's walkable and relatively close to downtown/universities) but if tomorrow I needed to buy a vehicle for work, there would be nowhere to park it overnight, at my own place or even "nearby", unless I could find a neighbour who was willing to let me use/rent their driveway. It's normal for delivery drivers to have to just leave their vehicle in the middle of the (1 lane, bidirectional) street while they saunter to the house, or block people's driveways - this happens many times every single day.

What Toronto seems to do is simply convert the backyards into parking, or not have parking included in the rent. This is where good transit and overall good transportation is key.

[GreaterMontréal]

Most — in the City gals in Montreal don't live downtown. In 2021 there were about 718,832 people living in the urban fringe (less than 10 minutes from downtown) in Montreal. That is 70% more than in Toronto (440,411), and about 120% more than in Vancouver (330,368).

Calgary and Edmonton are in the 250-270k range.

Even in the Near suburb (10 to 20 min from downtown) category, Montreal (1,396,056) is ahead of Toronto (1,349,839) by a small margin still. Both cities are in a league of their own, as the next city is Edmonton with 780,955.

The only category where Toronto outgrew Montreal in absolute growth is in the downtown core, and in the distant suburb (30min or more from downtown).

Both Toronto and Vancouver saw their distant suburb population grow the most, about 200k in Toronto and 100k in Vancouver.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220209/t005b-eng.htm

Toronto seems to only grow in the extremes, in its downtown and in the distant suburbs, that's weird, and it's textbook sprawl. What I find astonishing is that Toronto is losing the race against Montreal and Vancouver in the 2 most important categories, the urban fringe and the near suburb. This is where all the heavy transit network will take place, like the Metro and the REM in Montreal. You want to densify the urban core. It's like Toronto didn't saw any growth at all. You want to densify from the inside out,Montreal and Vancouver did that. The 3 cities saw a increase in the intermediate and distant suburb category, but Montreal being the city with the lowest absolute growth.

If Vancouver wants to have a more affordable real estate market, it should increase dramatically its urban core population. Toronto is sprawling and doing the same mistake as Vancouver. Zoning laws must change in those 2 cities.

[casper]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Not sure the "recycle, reduce, reuse" mentality towards housing supply is necessarily great for Toronto's situation.

It's great for pricey granola hipsterdom though.

The recycle, reduce, reuse mentally can work in other cities.

This is an example of 1950s bungalow that had the roof removed a second floor added and a suite added in the mail building. Zoning would allow a laneway suite above the garage to also be added. Reduces waste, looks nice and is upgraded to modern standards. Since it can't be sub-divided the extra suite and laneway apartment all become rentals.

https://goo.gl/maps/ia6Qxdoy3ucFZU8g6

This location is about 10 minute walk to SkyTrain and 10 minutes into downtown. Quite urban.

[Coldrsx]

https://twitter.com/CMHC_ca/status/1603380443637862402

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by niwell

It’s a Toronto life hate read article.

Thank you.

C'mon everyone. You gotta be wise to Toronto Life's shtick now. You read it like one reads the National Enquirer, except for urbane upper-middle class folks who got theirs before 'The Great Screwing Over' left people in the dust permanently.

Don't give in to the urge to click! It's bait!

[hipster duck]

Re: Toronto Life Article

I'm not exactly Mr. Woke, but people are forgetting that she's black and a lot of the culture she belongs to is found in the suburbs. The clubs she lists off are Hip Hop/RnB/Dancehall type places found in Mississauga and Brampton, which are closer to where people in her community live. She may rarely go downtown, but that doesn't make her any less of a "big city" person.

I mean, people don't judge downtowners who rarely go north of Bloor street, and the reasons might be the same: because Toronto is big and you sort yourself into the part of the city that has the things you like.

---

Of all the Toronto Life clickbait articles, I probably empathized with this one the most. She probably made a drive-by judgment about Edmonton and I wouldn't buy a house sight unseen, but buying a $400k suburban house and renting out the spare bedroom seems reasonably financially savvy. How much does a 1BR in downtown Edmonton cost? Probably more per month if you don't have a renter helping you pay your mortgage. If you don't know much about a city's real estate market, and which locations are more valuable than others, buying the biggest house you can afford is not stupid advice.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Re: Toronto Life Article

I'm not exactly Mr. Woke, but people are forgetting that she's black and a lot of the culture she belongs to is found in the suburbs. The clubs she lists off are Hip Hop/RnB/Dancehall type places found in Mississauga and Brampton, which are closer to where people in her community live. She may rarely go downtown, but that doesn't make her any less of a "big city" person.

I mean, people don't judge downtowners who rarely go north of Bloor street, and the reasons might be the same: because Toronto is big and you sort yourself into the part of the city that has the things you like.

---

Of all the Toronto Life clickbait articles, I probably empathized with this one the most. She probably made a drive-by judgment about Edmonton and I wouldn't buy a house sight unseen, but buying a $400k suburban house and renting out the spare bedroom seems reasonably financially savvy. How much does a 1BR in downtown Edmonton cost? Probably more per month if you don't have a renter helping you pay your mortgage. If you don't know much about a city's real estate market, and which locations are more valuable than others, buying the biggest house you can afford is not stupid advice.

The most obvious mistake she made was going into the deep suburbs when she wanted an "urban" lifestyle. I mean, let's face it. No one over the age of 22 wants roommates. The vast majority would prefer a smaller space that is all their own instead of a big house that you have to share with others.

And she can't blame it on some rash impulse decision either, because according to the article she had visited Edmonton before. Even one weekend there will tell you that living out by the airport is not exactly vibrant, big-city living. Anyone with even a cursory experience with cities in general will understand that deep suburbia, even in Toronto, is a place oriented to families and quieter lifestyles.

Had she moved to an area consistent with her lifestyle expectations (Strathcona or Oliver being the most obvious choices), she would have probably found what she was looking for.

The article was pure silliness. This woman was her own worst enemy.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Re: Toronto Life Article

I'm not exactly Mr. Woke, but people are forgetting that she's black and a lot of the culture she belongs to is found in the suburbs. The clubs she lists off are Hip Hop/RnB/Dancehall type places found in Mississauga and Brampton, which are closer to where people in her community live. She may rarely go downtown, but that doesn't make her any less of a "big city" person.

Yeah I was reticent to mention it, but this is why I said it was more to enrage Torontonians at the mention of her going to cactus club every day after work. They threw that in there because not as many people know what Sugar Daddy's is. My direct report at work talks about clubs she goes to in Scarborough when we are out for coffee or after work drinks and it's a blank for me. But I do know that doesn't really exist to the same extent (if at all) in Edmonton.

The girl in the article my have not found Whyte ave as dire, but I doubt she'd have stayed a whole lot longer.