[Dartmouth] M District FGN (21 Mic Mac Blvd) | ? m | ^40 Floors | Approved

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Half-Axed

So...any word on when the construction of that beautiful new woody-beamed art gallery begins? It will be a nice complement to Queen's Marque...

So...any word on what the current owner's intention is with respect to re-development of the Mic Mac Mall property is?

There. Back on track.

[Dmajackson]

Well this is back and the proposed redevelopment scale is massive. Ten phases of construction altering all of the lands outside of the main mall building and Irving offices. Seven buildings proposed to be 30-36 stories. Office buildings of up to 14 stories and a 400-unit seniors care facility.

2'000 - 2'200 residential units
400 senior's care units
482'000 sq ft ground floor retail
1'075'000 sq ft non-ground floor retail
900 spaces in above ground parking structure (Phase 1)
5'500 underground spaces
350 surface spaces

Case 24469 Initiation Report

There's a beautiful looking site plan at the end of the report.

[MonctonRad]

Impressive redevelopment to be sure. I wonder though if this is not a little bit over the top. The plan almost seems a little claustrophobic, and, I'm not sure how this will blend into the surrounding SFH neighbourhood.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Impressive redevelopment to be sure. I wonder though if this is not a little bit over the top. The plan almost seems a little claustrophobic, and, I'm not sure how this will blend into the surrounding SFH neighbourhood.

Claustrophobic is a good word for it, especially when considering the building heights proposed. This is packing an awful lot into that space. I have a hard time understanding the plan view at the end. I don't know if those are boulevard roads cris-crossing the site or pedestrian paths. It is one thing for the document to suggest pedestrian-oriented movement within the site, but that is one very big parcel and I would not expect many to be wanting to walk from one end to the other. Also, the number of residential units are such that HRM and the province would need to do some serious street and road upgrades in the surrounding area. I can just imagine what Woodland Ave and the streets that connect to it would be like at rush hour with all those new residents. Halifax Transit would really need to step up their service game to even be a consideration as an alternative here.

[Drybrain]

I would love to see street-level renders here, because well-designed, I don’t see why this couldn’t work (with the proper infrastructure support).
But from an urban-form perspective, it probably make better sense to knock down the mall altogether and cover the whole site with eight-storey buildings, on tight blocks, with good street-facing facades.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I would love to see street-level renders here, because well-designed, I don’t see why this couldn’t work (with the proper infrastructure support).
But from an urban-form perspective, it probably make better sense to knock down the mall altogether and cover the whole site with eight-storey buildings, on tight blocks, with good street-facing facades.

I would hate to see a monoculture of eight storey buildings, and I appreciate having some height, but, this is such a game changer, I agree that one has to wonder why they are bothering to keep the mall in the first place. A complete redo of the site might be a better option.

Just start fresh and do it right.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

The proposed towers seem, at worst, similiarly spaced as the Horizon Ct. towers next door which have never struck me as being too close to each other. I believe a third tower will eventually be built on the Woodland Ave. side of that site. Keeping in mind that the hwy 111 side of the site is nearly a half km in length, seven towers of varying height along that stretch probably won't look overly tight...providing that the towers aren't fat. It's good to see that the podium does not run the entirety of this side of the development. The pedestrian access bridge to Shubie Park over the 111 is great. I suspect that the connections to and through the mall will provide interesting and shelterd access for residents and shoppers to public transit. As Keith has already pointed out, neither our public transit nor the road infrustructure surrounding this area are capable of supporting this development. Go shop at the mall the saturday before christmas to experience this. Of course, there is a roundabout proposed for the 118/Woodland Ave. that's bound to solve this issue. lol

[IanWatson]

This really underscores to me that we need to be thinking about higher-order transit yesterday. Overall this seems fine, except it absolutely should have space for a higher-order transit station, ideally on the highway side of things. I don't think it will ever be easy to get higher-order transit into the current transit terminal location.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Impressive redevelopment to be sure. I wonder though if this is not a little bit over the top. The plan almost seems a little claustrophobic, and, I'm not sure how this will blend into the surrounding SFH neighbourhood.

Source

There isn't really any SFH "adjacent" to the site that is not already buffered in some way. The site is surrounded by apartment buildings on 3 sides and the Circ (111) on the other. On the other side of the Circ there is basically one street of SFHs, although it's already totally cut off by the Circ. There are a handful of SFHs and townhouses kitty-corner to the southern tip of the property.

I don't think that "negative impacts" from this on the SFH neighbourhood between the mall and Brightwood would be any greater than those of new apartment buildings along Dutch Village or Joseph Howe or above Dunbrack on the existing SFHs in Fairview, or the similar "site infill" proposals at Mumford, Penhorn, or Park West Plaza on their surrounding neighbourhoods (for example). The tallest proposed buildings are lining the Circ. There is already a major transit terminal on the site, and this can function well as TOD. The landscaping/circulation/parking seems well thought-out and at first glance I struggle to find anything about this that I don't like.

It makes better use of the existing site (I think that it will be more attractive and more functional overall after this development) and adds a lot of housing units without getting rid of any existing ones. It seems that the scale is the right size to make it a focal point without making the overall area feel totally sterile and detached. I'm optimistic about this one.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would hate to see a monoculture of eight storey buildings, and I appreciate having some height, but, this is such a game changer, I agree that one has to wonder why they are bothering to keep the mall in the first place. A complete redo of the site might be a better option.

Just start fresh and do it right.

I think it would be a mistake to get rid of the mall itself. It's a fairly nice mall (at least on the inside ) and is one of only 2 "major" indoor malls in HRM (and the only remaining indoor mall in Dartmouth). In theory I guess it would be possible to demolish it and then rebuild something similar as part of the redevelopment, but I don't think this would be cost-effective, and would force all the retail tenants out of the mall in the meantime. Even though indoor malls aren't really in vogue anymore, it makes sense to keep some if the city wants people to have reasonable access to those types of businesses/services without driving. It's much more transit/AT-friendly than the big box format.

This type of "build onto an existing mall" redevelopment seems most common/established in the Vancouver area. I'm not 100% sure but in most or all of those cases I think they preserved the existing mall.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't think that "negative impacts" from this on the SFH neighbourhood between the mall and Brightwood would be any greater than those of new apartment buildings along Dutch Village or Joseph Howe or above Dunbrack on the existing SFHs in Fairview, or the similar "site infill" proposals at Mumford, Penhorn, or Park West Plaza on their surrounding neighbourhoods (for example). The tallest proposed buildings are lining the Circ. There is already a major transit terminal on the site, and this can function well as TOD. The landscaping/circulation/parking seems well thought-out and at first glance I struggle to find anything about this that I don't like.

It makes better use of the existing site (I think that it will be more attractive and more functional overall after this development) and adds a lot of housing units without getting rid of any existing ones. It seems that the scale is the right size to make it a focal point without making the overall area feel totally sterile and detached. I'm optimistic about this one.

This is on a scale that dwarfs all of the existing examples you used and it is concentrated all in one spot. Also it is in a location where very few of the future residents will not have much in the way of nearby work or viable transportation options in the foreseeable future to get them to and from work (I do not include Transit as we now know it as a viable option and don't even mention cycling). It will have huge traffic impacts on the existing infrastructure, especially the Circ and the MacKay Bridge. The Macdonald bridge is already well over capacity and depends upon clogged surface streets at rush hour so that will only get worse. This proposal needs a lot more thinking from a great many groups.

[MonctonRad]

Precisely.

If Halifax is going to allow large suburban residential nodes like this then the city is going to have to get very serious very quickly about improved public transit options, and this does not mean active transportation or cycling; it also doesn't mean busses (since the city doesn't have the road network that can support dedicated bus lanes).

What it means is an immediate investment in trolleys/LRT and heavy commuter rail. The time has come for the city to bite the bullet. Frig, Halifax should have chowed down on this ordinance 10 years ago.

I accept Hali87's arguments about the site plan of the development. I only see three entrances to underground parking however. Will this lead to congestion during heavy traffic periods while waiting for people to pay? Will such a radical change to the parking at the shopping centre make MicMac Mall intimidating to out of towners??? If I was from Canso or Digby, I know I would be much more inclined to visit Dartmouth Crossing instead with that developments more user friendly and less intimidating parking situation.

[MonctonRad]

If Premier Houston is successful in his desire to have two million Nova Scotians by 2060, this makes the urgency of dealing with serious mass transportation options in HRM even more important.

You just know that the vast, vast majority of the population growth in NS will be in HRM. If the population projections are true, there could be 1.4M Haligonians by 2060, equivalent to the current day population of Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa. All three of these cities have subways and/or LRT. 2060 is only 40 years away. There is no time left to dither. Planning should be occurring now. Negotiations with other levels of government should be occurring now. Construction should begin in the next 10 years or so.

The clock is ticking............

[HaliKid]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If Premier Houston is successful in his desire to have two million Nova Scotians by 2060, this makes the urgency of dealing with serious mass transportation options in HRM even more important.

You just know that the vast, vast majority of the population growth in NS will be in HRM. If the population projections are true, there could be 1.4M Haligonians by 2060, equivalent to the current day population of Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa. All three of these cities have subways and/or LRT. 2060 is only 40 years away. There is no time left to dither. Planning should be occurring now. Negotiations with other levels of government should be occurring now. Construction should begin in the next 10 years or so.

The clock is ticking............

Out of curiosity, where abouts in city do people see a viable LRT option. West end to downtown? North end to downtown?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Precisely.

If Halifax is going to allow large suburban residential nodes like this then the city is going to have to get very serious very quickly about improved public transit options, and this does not mean active transportation or cycling; it also doesn't mean busses (since the city doesn't have the road network that can support dedicated bus lanes).

What it means is an immediate investment in trolleys/LRT and heavy commuter rail. The time has come for the city to bite the bullet. Frig, Halifax should have chowed down on this ordinance 10 years ago.

Yup... should have been planned for and executed 40 years ago, IMHO. Halifax's transit options have been bad for a very long time and have never really come close to keeping up with the times. It's why I get frustrated with all of the energy focused on bicycle infrastructure (which is a nice addition to the city, and important for the safety of cyclists and the image of the city for younger people) when we really need to have efficient, regular transit options that still appear to have little planning for.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I accept Hali87's arguments about the site plan of the development. I only see three entrances to underground parking however. Will this lead to congestion during heavy traffic periods while waiting for people to pay? Will such a radical change to the parking at the shopping centre make MicMac Mall intimidating to out of towners??? If I was from Canso or Digby, I know I would be much more inclined to visit Dartmouth Crossing instead with that developments more user friendly and less intimidating parking situation.

I was thinking the same thing, but was going to remain quiet about it. I'm not sure about the fixation of using mall parking lots for development. Seems like a good way to ruin a mall, IMHO, by making parking more difficult - and if it becomes pay parking, then people will just go elsewhere. I'll leave the business model for those who know more than I do, but IMHO a mall is about convenience, and if you make it less convenient for people who don't live there, then the business advantage goes away. Having residents living basically onsite will surely induce some baseline traffic, but whether that offsets those who would come there from away is unknown to me.

Regardless, if it kills the mall, then there will be more space to develop, and hopefully better transit options will be available by then... And there's always online shopping...

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by HaliKid

Out of curiosity, where abouts in city do people see a viable LRT option. West end to downtown? North end to downtown?

There is current dissucision on the Great Canadain Transit thread on the Canada page on this issue.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I was thinking the same thing, but was going to remain quiet about it. I'm not sure about the fixation of using mall parking lots for development. Seems like a good way to ruin a mall, IMHO, by making parking more difficult - and if it becomes pay parking, then people will just go elsewhere. I'll leave the business model for those who know more than I do, but IMHO a mall is about convenience, and if you make it less convenient for people who don't live there, then the business advantage goes away. Having residents living basically onsite will surely induce some baseline traffic, but whether that offsets those who would come there from away is unknown to me.

Regardless, if it kills the mall, then there will be more space to develop, and hopefully better transit options will be available by then... And there's always online shopping...

Malls are dying generally all over North America in the wake of online shopping combined with Covid keeping people away and the difficulty of getting minimum-wage workers to actually work. It is all about convenience these days and it is far more convenient to click on a button instead of looking for parking, dealing with finding an item which may or may not be on the shelf, and often paying more. Not true for everyone or everything, but for a lot of things.

Add to that the well-known reluctance of Haligonians to use shopping mall parking garages vs open-air lots - I don't understand that but it seems to be the long-standing pattern. For year MicMac has had a lot of vacant space as it is. This won't help that in the immediate term.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by HaliKid

Out of curiosity, where abouts in city do people see a viable LRT option. West end to downtown? North end to downtown?

Well, in my lifetime we had a rail line that stretched almost as far as Purdy's Wharf but which was torn up a few decades ago. That would be difficult but not impossible to replicate today but probably could be done if there was the will. Of course there is the rail cut which might be an option despite CN being uncooperative with a creative design, perhaps something suspended over the top of it. Or perhaps something paralleling the 102 and somehow connecting (not sure how exactly) to Young at Windsor and going along Robie (again challenging south of Almon for a stretch).

All it takes is federal money. A far better investment than a flyover for cyclists. It's all about priorities.

[JET]

Hopefully, a grocery store will be included in this development.

[ScovaNotian]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, in my lifetime we had a rail line that stretched almost as far as Purdy's Wharf but which was torn up a few decades ago. That would be difficult but not impossible to replicate today but probably could be done if there was the will.

That sounds like something worth doing. It looks like an almost uninterrupted row of parking lots right now.