Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[craner]

EPT made me search up CPL attendance:
http://https://13thmansports.ca/2022/10/14/a-deep-dive-into-cpl-attendance/

I thought average attendance would be higher TBH.

[thurmas]

Ambrosie did say he was meeting with Halifax officials after the Grey Cup. Maybe if a 22,000 seat stadium could be built as a partnership with the Wanderers similar to the Blue Bombers and Valour than maybe there's a better chance of a stadium getting built.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by craner

EPT made me search up MLS attendance:
http://https://13thmansports.ca/2022/10/14/a-deep-dive-into-cpl-attendance/

I thought average attendance would be higher TBH.

You mean CPL attendance...

Valour's attendance started out respectably in 2019, but it took a real turn for the worse. I'm sure the drop was driven mainly by the team's poor performance... they were not a good team, and the games were dull and that definitely drove away casual fans. Also the Bombers were on a generational tear and they really took up all the oxygen in the room in terms of sports coverage... the local sports shows didn't spend much time on Valour.

I will say, Valour tickets are not that cheap for what it is either. Tickets are not that much less expensive than a Bomber game even though a Bomber game has far, far more entertainment value.

Valour can make up some of that lost ground, but they need to win and put a more consistent product out there. Paying $40 a ticket to watch them stumble and bumble all over the pitch is not an enticing proposition.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Maybe if a 22,000 seat stadium could be built as a partnership with the Wanderers similar to the Blue Bombers and Valour than maybe there's a better chance of a stadium getting built.

IGF opened five years before the Valour came into existence.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by elly63

IGF opened five years before the Valour came into existence.

Yes but for stadiums to get built in Canada they usually need strong value propositions to get govt funding. If a cpl team and cfl team and ownership are both secured if a very basic stadium can be built then halifax can get the economic benefits of cfl and cpl economic bump on game days and 100 million in economic activity if they host a grey cup

[esquire]

^ Yeah, IG Field was going to get built with or without soccer. Football has an established track record in Winnipeg and it was enough to get the new stadium built. But in a place like Halifax, the CFL probably isn't enough to build a political case for a new venue.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by craner

^^As in the Halifax Forum ?
Is that place still around ?

https://huddle.today/2022/04/11/feed...orum-redesign/

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am skeptical. What they built had almost no room for spectators and so likely only served a relatively small number of people for a specific purpose. The city has no good outdoor event space at all. The permanent Wanderers Grounds proposal will often be maxed with 10,000 spectators and the proposed budget is $15-20M. The 4-pad was built many years ago so the modern budget would probably be more like $50-60M.

The debate reminds me a lot of HSR where people jump to white elephant scenarios when the reality is that much of Canada has 19th century style service levels or no service at all, so modest improvements would be a huge upgrade. A stadium much nicer than anything NS has would at this point be a relatively minor municipal budget item.

Do you have hockey tournamant aged kids? Parents of hockey players that I'm friends with are gone it seems like every other weekend. You don't need lots of spectator room, these 4 plexes usually have a restaurant or 2 in the common space in the middle of the rinks where the parents hang out while their kids are playing. Every weekend there will be hundreds of families coming to a tournament in that rink, with a large number of them grabbing 2 or 3 nights in a hotel and the spending that entails. A stadium isn't going to draw anywhere near as many out of towners as the 4 plex rink will. However, I don't think it's a fair comparison either and I'm not saying it should be either/or. A regional centre like Halifax should have a good stadium and they shouldn't have to justify its existence by saying it will have high school sports or the possibility of an NHL game once, maybe twice, ever. It should just be a civic asset in the same way cities have libraries and transit systems. A stadium is a costly venture and it's not going to make money any which way they try to spin it, so they should just suck it up and build one.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Do you have hockey tournamant aged kids? Parents of hockey players that I'm friends with are gone it seems like every other weekend. You don't need lots of spectator room, these 4 plexes usually have a restaurant or 2 in the common space in the middle of the rinks where the parents hang out while their kids are playing. Every weekend there will be hundreds of families coming to a tournament in that rink, with a large number of them grabbing 2 or 3 nights in a hotel and the spending that entails. A stadium isn't going to draw anywhere near as many out of towners as the 4 plex rink will.

You are saying that a 4-plex arena in a suburban area oriented toward schoolkids and beer leagues will draw more out of town people and generate more hotel stays than a downtown stadium for concerts and pro sports that has maybe 20x the max occupancy?

The 4-plex was sold mostly as infrastructure for physical activity, kind of like a school gym or soccer field except way more expensive per user. A lot of people in Halifax are hockey-crazed and want to play it but outdoor rinks are hit or miss so they demand that the government provide year-round ice surfaces as a human right. The local media used to run stories about the crisis and how people would have to wait on lists or drive across town for ice time.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

You are saying that a 4-plex arena in a suburban area oriented toward schoolkids and beer leagues will draw more out of town people and generate more hotel stays than a downtown stadium for concerts and pro sports that has maybe 20x the max occupancy?

You would be surprised how much economic activity can be generated by a 4-plex.

My eldest son played hockey, and even house league teams generally sign up for four tournaments a year, in addition to house league games. Most of these tournaments are out of town, and last three days, meaning a full weekend in a neighbouring city or town, requiring a hotel stay.

These tournaments can have 20 teams or so playing (the largest ones perhaps 2-3x that). each team has about 20 players or so. This means about 400 full hotel rooms (usually more than this because some families have two rooms if they have multiple kids). Add to that snacks, drinks, 2-3 restaurant meals a day and some spousal shopping, and you can have a pretty big February shot in the arm for the local economy (at a time when nothing else is going on).

4-plexes are extremely popular for tournaments because of the ease in scheduling games. Parents love it because they know where all the games are going to be played. It's a lot better than looking for obscure neighbourhood arenas in far flung areas of a town that you are not familiar with. If your city has multiple 4-plexes, you are going to get a lot of tournaments. They are not a waste of money. Many urbanists think they are because they pander to suburban hockey moms, and urbanists hate anything suburban. This is a given.

[someone123]

Maybe. I didn't say it was a waste of money. Only that the city will spend similar amounts on comparable infrastructure if it's a priority, as apparently they're spending $89M on the Forum (which I'm also not against; I don't really have a strong opinion on it). The idea I had in mind is that people sometimes say that nothing gets built in Halifax or it doesn't have a can-do attitude or whatever, when often the priorities are just different and people aren't aware of the other stuff that gets built.

My skepticism about money spent on ice surfaces for amateur sport is that I think it probably costs a lot more than alternative kinds of infrastructure that could also provide physical activity. Building and maintaining an artificial field or basketball court is a lot cheaper than a hockey rink.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

My skepticism about money spent on ice surfaces for amateur sport is that I think it probably costs a lot more than alternative kinds of infrastructure that could also provide physical activity. Building and maintaining an artificial field or basketball court is a lot cheaper than a hockey rink.

But Canada is a cold country and our national sport is hockey. Amateur ice surfaces in suburban 4-plexes are also a big vote getter at election time. They are seen as promoting physical activity, youth sports and family bonding over shared sporting experiences. A large professional arena or stadium downtown is viewed with a more jaundiced eye because it is seen as pandering to elite professional athletes and corporate tycoons who should be financing the arenas themselves. Tall Poppy Syndrome wins again...........

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

You are saying that a 4-plex arena in a suburban area oriented toward schoolkids and beer leagues will draw more out of town people and generate more hotel stays than a downtown stadium for concerts and pro sports that has maybe 20x the max occupancy?

I think you are over estimating the overnight crowd for a CFL game and vastly underestimating the number of hotel stays a weekend youth hockey tournament draws. And the fact that the 4 plex is probably hosting at least one of those tournaments every weekend, not a dozen or so football games and concerts a year. But like I said, these are 2 totally different types of community investments and not ones that should be pitted against each other.

[thurmas]

The touchdown Atlantic game in Wolfville NS of just 10,000 fans generated over 12 million in economic activity for the area. I think a business case can be made for a stadium. Now can a 4 plex do that I am doubtful it would but maybe it can?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by thurmas

The touchdown Atlantic game in Wolfville NS of just 10,000 fans generated over 12 million in economic activity for the area. I think a business case can be made for a stadium. Now can a 4 plex do that I am doubtful it would but maybe it can?

I think the only business case that proves is having a one-off game there every few years. I'm sure the NFL game in Winnipeg generated a lot of economic activity, but that doesn't mean Winnipeg should get a team. If you are using the phrase "business case" in the sense of showing why something makes financial sense, then this doesn't show a business case for a Halifax stadium. As I said, Halifax should build the stadium because they simply should have one, being the large regional centre that they are. It should be a piece of civic infrastructure. If they had the stadium, they would have a CFL team, which certainly reduces the financial pain of carrying a stadium, but it won't make the stadium become a money maker.

I'm also dubious of these claims of economic activity. I think they always over estimate how much people spend.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I'm also dubious of these claims of economic activity. I think they always over estimate how much people spend.

Definitely. The quoted "benefits" don't account for the fact people will find other ways to allocate their discretionary income. No stadium or games? Shop, eat at restaurants, do other activities, or just save it.

To me it's the cultural value that matters more. Does the local market want to have the sports option? Is there enough support for it? If so then make it happen.

[WhipperSnapper]

I have no doubt that a hockey rink plex will generate more out of town visitors than an artificial field or basketball court. It's a sport for wealthier families. Is taking out of town visitors into account really the best investment for civic sports infrastructure over providing spaces for kids to waste time productively?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I have no doubt that a hockey rink plex will generate more out of town visitors than an artificial field or basketball court. It's a sport for wealthier families. Is taking out of town visitors into account really the best investment for civic sports infrastructure over providing spaces for kids to waste time productively?

I think this debate is in the weeds. The 4-plex was sold as infrastructure promoting physical fitness and I only brought it up as an example that the city does build stadium-level stuff (total capital budget) but picks different priorities. You could cobble together a CFL stadium out of the budgets of the various HRM projects that have been undertaken in recent years. My criticisms of the 4-plex are that it was built regardless of provincial/federal funds matching and is probably not the most cost-effective way of encouraging people to be more physically active.

One of the standard PR issues of the stadium project is it has been sold as a "CFL stadium" and that is getting repeated here (it will only be used a few times a year etc.). It has many potential uses. I think there's a good argument that in a regional centre of a certain size eventually you want some kind of multi-purpose event space with a capacity over 10k or so. Not so much as an economic driver but as an amenity for residents. I don't think ice surfaces built primarily for the users has the same level of regional amenity value per dollar spent, but that's not really important. We can see that Halifax and the Maritimes or Atlantic Canada are big outliers lacking stadium style infrastructure.

[thurmas]

With Tempe keeping the coyotes for the next 30 + years I guess this cements centre videotron in Quebec as the modern day copps coliseum of the 80s and early 90s.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by thurmas

With Tempe keeping the coyotes for the next 30 + years I guess this cements centre videotron in Quebec as the modern day copps coliseum of the 80s and early 90s.

Hold on. It's far from certain. There will be a referendum on the project in May. If that is approved, then yes, their future is secured in Arizona for the next 30 years. People in Quebec can cast their gaze towards the Florida Panthers who are far from having a certain long-term future in Miami.