Halifax Transit

[someone123]

My impression is that the main problem with rail service is that VIA does not own any of the track. The track should be publicly owned and auctioned to operators like VIA or CN/CP. Another problem is that VIA has a bunch of political constraints built into its services. Unfortunately, with this messed up system in place, the options are limited.

But we could still build some new track along ROWs like highways. Maybe the provinces should take more ownership. In the Maritimes, there could be a partnership between NS and NB with the goal of creating service for Halifax/Truro/Amherst/Sackville/Moncton/Saint John which is actually a pretty developed route.

I think the path to good rail service in Canada is made up of thousands of tiny improvement projects, like signaling enhancements, replacing small segments of track, and removing at-grade crossings. This is harder to incorporate into a political platform or debate in the abstract than a showcase project like TGV style HSR.

If the railways were run competently in Canada, it would be possible to have 200 km/h service to the main towns in the Maritimes. In many cases that would be more convenient than driving. Something like an overnight train to Montreal would be useful too.

[LikesBikes]

Instead of building a new rail line would it be possible to upgrade the frequencies and speeds of the Ocean? I know the issues with this kind of stuff usually come down to ownership of the rail but one would think there'd be a way to somehow get around this.

Nobody needs to get from Halifax to Moncton in an hour, but if there was a two-to-three times a day train that wasn't too expensive and could get you between cities in 3-4 hours, I could see it being successful. Last time I used the Maritime Bus between New Glasgow and Halifax it was totally full so there's definitely some demand for regional public transportation options, and especially so after taking into account population growth.

[caveat.doctor]

Just wanted to make a positive note using the 320 Airport Express this past week to and from town. Both trips were right on time as scheduled. The route itself seemed to be straightforward enough without any obvious "useless" detours. No one boarded or alighted at any of the other employment centres near the airport, but I wasn't aboard during rush hour, maybe there are staff who use it. From the airport, everyone went either to the Bridge terminal or downtown. From downtown, one person got off at the Fall River park and ride (which was 1/2 full midday), otherwise everyone went to the airport. Eight passengers total either way, so $34 in fare - so I'm sure this is one of the more heavily subsidised routes in the system. Thanks Haligonian taxpayers!

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by LikesBikes

Instead of building a new rail line would it be possible to upgrade the frequencies and speeds of the Ocean? I know the issues with this kind of stuff usually come down to ownership of the rail but one would think there'd be a way to somehow get around this.

Nobody needs to get from Halifax to Moncton in an hour, but if there was a two-to-three times a day train that wasn't too expensive and could get you between cities in 3-4 hours, I could see it being successful. Last time I used the Maritime Bus between New Glasgow and Halifax it was totally full so there's definitely some demand for regional public transportation options, and especially so after taking into account population growth.

First time posting here in awhile because all of the negativity and bickering can make this an unpleasant place to engage in, but I digress...

My understanding of all of this is: Not really. CN owns the line and everything is built around freight priorities and freight speeds (low). The Ocean (and other Via trains outside of ON/QC) are notoriously late (as in several hours) due to frequently having to wait for freight. CN is obstinate on this. Sections of track (particularly through NB) are very poorly maintained and require slower than normal speeds. Anything east of Quebec is also an afterthought and low priority for Via. Investment here is basically 0. Any kind of improvement would have to come with intervention/funding from the federal government (see their recent investment in the 'high frequency' quasi-highspeed rail corridor from TO to Quebec City) or provincially (potentially with co-operation from NB) in a GO-style regional rail, but given the cost and how averse Maritime governments are on spending, that'll never happen.

Honestly, one of the stupidest things done in the last 40 years was to kill regional service and give up the ROWs and infrastructure.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Yes, and that means it might be feasible in the Toronto-Montreal corridor (if not Windsor-Quebec City) but is still blisteringly expensive to build. That leaves another several thousand km of nothingness we'd need to build through to go coast-to-coast as you suggested.

Seriously, you should take a sober look at the costs involved.

These are not "excuses" for not building out rail. Those who think they are really need to do some basic research.

I'd love to see nationwide high-speed rail, but it would be nice if our expectations and aspirations had at least a tenuous connection to reality.

They could bring back rail on the 2 rail corridors towards Yarmouth and towards the east. Those 3 corridors could have service to match the flow of commuters and could be successful, even if it is just regular trains going 80-100km/hr.

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression is that the main problem with rail service is that VIA does not own any of the track. The track should be publicly owned and auctioned to operators like VIA or CN/CP. Another problem is that VIA has a bunch of political constraints built into its services. Unfortunately, with this messed up system in place, the options are limited.

But we could still build some new track along ROWs like highways. Maybe the provinces should take more ownership. In the Maritimes, there could be a partnership between NS and NB with the goal of creating service for Halifax/Truro/Amherst/Sackville/Moncton/Saint John which is actually a pretty developed route.

I think the path to good rail service in Canada is made up of thousands of tiny improvement projects, like signaling enhancements, replacing small segments of track, and removing at-grade crossings. This is harder to incorporate into a political platform or debate in the abstract than a showcase project like TGV style HSR.

If the railways were run competently in Canada, it would be possible to have 200 km/h service to the main towns in the Maritimes. In many cases that would be more convenient than driving. Something like an overnight train to Montreal would be useful too.

The single biggest improvement needed is funding increase. That really is the only way to improve Via. Right now, the CEO position at Via is open. The problem is, no matter how much they want to do, they don't have the funds to do it.

Originally Posted by LikesBikes

Instead of building a new rail line would it be possible to upgrade the frequencies and speeds of the Ocean? I know the issues with this kind of stuff usually come down to ownership of the rail but one would think there'd be a way to somehow get around this.

Nobody needs to get from Halifax to Moncton in an hour, but if there was a two-to-three times a day train that wasn't too expensive and could get you between cities in 3-4 hours, I could see it being successful. Last time I used the Maritime Bus between New Glasgow and Halifax it was totally full so there's definitely some demand for regional public transportation options, and especially so after taking into account population growth.

Even if there was a daily service to Moncton, that would be a great start.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Yes, and that means it might be feasible in the Toronto-Montreal corridor (if not Windsor-Quebec City) but is still blisteringly expensive to build. That leaves another several thousand km of nothingness we'd need to build through to go coast-to-coast as you suggested.

Seriously, you should take a sober look at the costs involved.

These are not "excuses" for not building out rail. Those who think they are really need to do some basic research.

I'd love to see nationwide high-speed rail, but it would be nice if our expectations and aspirations had at least a tenuous connection to reality.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They could bring back rail on the 2 rail corridors towards Yarmouth and towards the east. Those 3 corridors could have service to match the flow of commuters and could be successful, even if it is just regular trains going 80-100km/hr.

Let me be clear: I was talking only about high-speed rail, not about rail service generally. I think there's plenty that could be done, for not-unreasonable cost, to vastly improve our train service - someone 123 had some great suggestions.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Let me be clear: I was talking only about high-speed rail, not about rail service generally. I think there's plenty that could be done, for not-unreasonable cost, to vastly improve our train service - someone 123 had some great suggestions.

There is no case for HSR in Nova Scotia. There is a case for better regular passenger service.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is no case for HSR in Nova Scotia. There is a case for better regular passenger service.

Uh...yeah...that's pretty much exactly what I said.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MolteN

Considering it's a goal at the Provincial government to double the population from the 1,030,547 we're at today to the ballpark of 2,000,000 by January 1st, 2060. Presents a unique opportunity for Canada considering Nova Scotia's small geography plus favourable climate with higher population density. To lay down the network for a hierarchical structure of public transportation infrastructure. In a perfect world this would be a bi-partisan issue but things like healthcare take a more urgent short term priority.

Siemens Velaro Novo 11 car high speed trains top speed of 320kph and a capacity of roughly 1000 people. This can be a nationwide network with service every 90 - 120 minutes and compete against airlines for medium and short distance travel, reserving planes for time sensitive business travel or international long haul flights.

Nova Scotia rail (NSR) on dedicated right of way with some shared lines with freight CN. Stadler KISS 160kph top speed double deck 7 car train, capacity of 735 with regional and express service every sixty minutes

Halifax Area Rapid Transit (HART)
Austal Volta 43V catamaran ferry fleet electric top speed of 70kph and capacity of 320 per boat service every ten to twenty minutes based on route. Terminals in Mill Cove, Larry uteck, Shannon Park, Alderney, Woodside. And three gate hub in downtown Halifax.

Stadler Metro trains of 5 top speed of 80kph capacity of 560 on elevated viaduct or sunken trench with service every ten minutes at stations spaced every 1600-1800 meters apart. Some tunnel sections on peninsula

Novabus LFS + LFS articulated HEV fleet capacity of 75-112 on grid BRT lines with transfers to metro stations or NSR stations. Suburban and exurban lines feed train lines. Service every ten minutes.

I realize that this is a very ambitious and unrealistic expectation for the next 37 years. But this infrastructure alongside proposed projects like the south end to Woodside tunnel and highway 113 and the middle Sackville masterplan will greatly improve the capacity to move people and cargo.

Great breakdown. I wish somebody in the city/provincial governments could have this kind of foresight. With the population growth that we will likely experience, the time to plan and lay down ROWs and infrastructure is now, as it will only become more difficult and expensive to do it in a reactionary way.

I agree with others that a 320 kph train would be hugely expensive and very challenging to run across Canada, but I would like to see it. I'm imagining what 5000+ km of grade-separated, protected rail would look like, and the program just to maintain and inspect it to such a high standard. It would be very cool to see. I've ridden on Shinkansen in Japan and it was quite an experience. I wonder if there would be an argument to replace some air travel with high speed rail from a climate perspective (electric rail vs jets burning tons of fuel and spewing out tons of carbon, etc)?

As much as people enjoy the old rail line trails for recreation, I think it would be a good idea to reclaim some of that to reinstate rail travel throughout the province.

In Halifax, where space is limited to run LRT, I'm wondering if an elevated rail system would be the way to go. Our long-experienced bus habit won't take us into doubling the population, IMHO. Car traffic will reach a critical mass if we double our population, to the point where it just won't be practical anymore to come into the peninsula by car - an alternative will be needed.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

Just wanted to make a positive note using the 320 Airport Express this past week to and from town. Both trips were right on time as scheduled. The route itself seemed to be straightforward enough without any obvious "useless" detours. No one boarded or alighted at any of the other employment centres near the airport, but I wasn't aboard during rush hour, maybe there are staff who use it. From the airport, everyone went either to the Bridge terminal or downtown. From downtown, one person got off at the Fall River park and ride (which was 1/2 full midday), otherwise everyone went to the airport. Eight passengers total either way, so $34 in fare - so I'm sure this is one of the more heavily subsidised routes in the system. Thanks Haligonian taxpayers!

Thanks for sharing your experience! I've wondered how that route is working, but haven't had any reason to use it.

[bartekci]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

Just wanted to make a positive note using the 320 Airport Express

Thanks for sharing! I have to head to the airport on a regular (every ~2 months) and I try to use this as much as possible. It's not much longer than a cab and well, much much cheaper. Hard to justify the $60 fixed one-way cost of a cab to the airport when you can sit on this bus and it takes maybe 20 minutes more.

For those who aren't near downtown or near one of its terminals, it can also make sense to cab to the bus terminal (e.g. the one in Dartmouth) and then catch the bus. $10-15 cab ride + bus fare, still ahead.

[LikesBikes]

I used the 320 to get to the airport back in July and also had a good experience with it. I remember about half the bus getting off at stops that weren't the airport too so it's not just servicing the people getting on and off a flight or airport workers.

Somewhat unrelated, but I just like the fact that you can take a city bus departing from downtown or the airport and go by some really beautiful and pristine looking forest and lakes, specifically around Miller Lake. For visitors, it's really not a bad way to enter the city and I think gives off a good impression of the area, especially when compared to most airport-downtown drives where instead of forests and lakes you're just navigating through pretty ugly and depressing stroads.

[OldDartmouthMark]

On the high speed train topic, I found this video on what it's like to ride Shinkansen. It reminds me very much of my experience...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-QRjOPnws

(I was having trouble getting the Youtube embedded video link to work, so I just added a clickable link to a separate page instead)

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

On the high speed train topic, I found this video on what it's like to ride Shinkansen. It reminds me very much of my experience...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-QRjOPnws

(I was having trouble getting the Youtube embedded video link to work, so I just added a clickable link to a separate page instead)

This is a bit of background/info on the proposed quasi-high speed "High-Frequency" Rail corridor between TO and Quebec City https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnaoXsWTdR4

And directly from Via: https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects-infrastructure/high-frequency-rail

If any parts of Canada ever get any kind of true HSR, it's more likely to be modeled on European style HSR and likely planned/implemented by a European company (see recent GO Transit expansion plans). See here for an example of European HSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lPAdEJO9w

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

This is a bit of background/info on the proposed quasi-high speed "High-Frequency" Rail corridor between TO and Quebec City https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnaoXsWTdR4

And directly from Via: https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects-infrastructure/high-frequency-rail

If any parts of Canada ever get any kind of true HSR, it's more likely to be modeled on European style HSR and likely planned/implemented by a European company (see recent GO Transit expansion plans). See here for an example of European HSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lPAdEJO9w

Thanks for that. It's good to have that kind of perspective.

I agree that if it's ever going to work, there needs to be a major investment in passenger-only rail infrastructure. As you mentioned in your previous post, as long as passenger rail takes second-fiddle to freight, there isn't really hope that passenger rail will be considered to be a viable alternative to just hopping in your car and going wherever.

I also agree with the guy in the first video that they need to 'overbuild' the new HFR to be expandable in the future, even if it means building it to HSR standards (if that's an option). Regardless, even if they don't build it to be able to actually have 'real' HSR in the future, it's still a step in the right direction.

From a Nova Scotia perspective, if we were to build a dedicated passenger rail line, where would we do it? Run a separate line beside the freight rails, or something completely different, like using some of the ROW taken up by twinned 100-series highways (perhaps run it in the center of the dividing boulevard?)?

I like the idea of bringing back rail to run through the province, like a loop from Halifax through the valley, to Yarmouth and back to Halifax via the south shore, and an eastern loop that does the same to Sydney. However, wrestling back the rails-to-trails ROWs would probably be politically very unpopular in the rural areas... though the idea of sacrificing trails that are basically used by ATVs for bringing back rural train service might tip the scales a little (?). I think that cost would be the real determining factor, though, in that the Feds and the Province would have to get together and kick in some big money to make it happen. On a private level it would probably be (rightfully) considered too risky to take on - even in the heyday of rail in the early 20th century, there was a lot of money lost by rail companies trying to make a run at it.

[Phalanx]

There are a lot of factors that are slowly tipping the scales back in favour of rail, even in rural areas (environmental issues, fuel costs, housing costs - imagine how much pressure could be taken off the housing market in Halifax by making commuting in and out of the city easier and cheaper).

But yes, the wholesale destruction of the old network in the 80s and 90s set us back by decades and at this point billions of dollars. It was shortsighted in the extreme. Highway medians are a popular and often effective way to claw back some of the ROWs but come with other considerations (more costly to deviate course/branch connections, different grade considerations for rails vs roads, building additional infrastructure like bridges may be difficult, etc etc.). What I find especially frustrating is that there doesn't seem to be much consideration for this or long term planning at either the provincial or federal levels, regardless of party in leadership. The longer even planning is put off, the more costly it becomes when we want (have) to do it. There are different coalitions (https://www.railconnects.com/ for example) and enthusiasts in the region that are trying to promote better rail options and the provincial NDP at least mention it as a small part of their platform, but outside of that... not much.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

What I find especially frustrating is that there doesn't seem to be much consideration for this or long term planning at either the provincial or federal levels, regardless of party in leadership.

NS does pretty well with highways. The planning and land assembly happen over decades, and it is possible to accelerate or slow down the work depending on growth that does or doesn't happen. I think the same model would work for railways. The province(s) should not start by jumping in and spending billions, they should carefully look at what low-hanging fruit is out there and try to build up corridors with the understanding that they will be useful for many decades. Urban transit is similar. It needs constant planning and multi-decade time horizons.

I don't know about the legality but it should also be practical for the government to expropriate low value, low intensity of use rural land like forestry areas and fields. The government should provide compensation and reasonable access. We act like it's impossible to build new infrastructure today but partly it's because the bar has been raised so high. NS was not empty in the 1800's or 1900's either but they managed to build railways and highways into new areas.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

There are a lot of factors that are slowly tipping the scales back in favour of rail, even in rural areas (environmental issues, fuel costs, housing costs - imagine how much pressure could be taken off the housing market in Halifax by making commuting in and out of the city easier and cheaper).

But yes, the wholesale destruction of the old network in the 80s and 90s set us back by decades and at this point billions of dollars. It was shortsighted in the extreme. Highway medians are a popular and often effective way to claw back some of the ROWs but come with other considerations (more costly to deviate course/branch connections, different grade considerations for rails vs roads, building additional infrastructure like bridges may be difficult, etc etc.). What I find especially frustrating is that there doesn't seem to be much consideration for this or long term planning at either the provincial or federal levels, regardless of party in leadership. The longer even planning is put off, the more costly it becomes when we want (have) to do it. There are different coalitions (https://www.railconnects.com/ for example) and enthusiasts in the region that are trying to promote better rail options and the provincial NDP at least mention it as a small part of their platform, but outside of that... not much.

Pick one of the 100 series highways in the area. none of them are flat enough to easily use for rail as well. I hate to say it, but the existing rail trails are the best options for low cost return of rail.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Pick one of the 100 series highways in the area. none of them are flat enough to easily use for rail as well. I hate to say it, but the existing rail trails are the best options for low cost return of rail.

That's one of the things I was getting at with grade considerations. In flatter areas it can work and has been done, and there may be areas here where it can be done, but the options for that are limited in a lot of places here.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

That's one of the things I was getting at with grade considerations. In flatter areas it can work and has been done, and there may be areas here where it can be done, but the options for that are limited in a lot of places here.

Lets look at roughly the first 50km of all that are in the area.
101 - maybe, but not al the way to Windsor.
102 - Not a chance.
103 - Not a chance
107 - Not a chance
111 - Maybe
118- Maybe

While on paper, it seems like a great idea, on the ground it would be better to find a better route, or reactivate the old lines.