The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

My understanding is that Ontario Line vehicles won't be cross compatible with other lines due to having different loading gauges and possibly different power systems. They'll be narrower and may have overhead centenary power, and even if they have 3rd rail will probably use the more common 750v instead of 600v.

[J.OT13]

• Video Link

[megadude]

Anyone else slipped on these things in the Teamway section of Union in Toronto? These were such a dumb idea. Yes, put polished metal in the ground so that they become incredibly slick when wet. I probably slipped a little bit about three times over the years before it finally became instinctive for me to watch out for them. Here’s. just two of them I snapped this morning. And what a surprise, the concrete in and around them is spalling, creating unnecessary repairs that will have to be done.

Could they not just install these in the concrete walls?

[someone123]

New bus map released to help people navigate:

Downtown


Urban core

https://cdn.halifax.ca/sites/default/fil...axmetrotransit_systemmap_nov2022_web.pdf

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

New bus map released to help people navigate:

Downtown


Urban core

https://cdn.halifax.ca/sites/default/fil...axmetrotransit_systemmap_nov2022_web.pdf

Halifax should be the next city to get some sort of RT in their downtown core.

[OTSkyline]

Yeah that map is giving me a headache. How is anyone supposed to follow this?

[Truenorth00]

Apparently, Musk's Boring Company has been ghosting cities after their insanely low bids win. From the Wall Street Journal:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-traffic-11669658396

Hope to never see this company do business Canada.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

New bus map released to help people navigate

Not only is that map almost a case study in bad UX, but the underlying philosophy behind how Halifax Metro Transit arranges its routes and probably its scheduling is also a lesson in bad planning.

It looks like the Halifax peninsula is covered by a simple grid of just 5 north-south and 6 east-west corridors, except each corridor has up to a dozen complicated routes, which probably fan out into the distant suburbs to give people from one subdivision a single seat ride into downtown. I wouldn't be surprised if even on streets that have a dozen routes, that there are times when a convoy of buses arrive, followed by 20 minutes of nothing. And I wouldn't be surprised if the suburban one-seat model into downtown results in just a single hourly bus that has to spend half its time deadheading.

They could just take each of those corridors, make it a high frequency route with <10 minute service and a single route designation, and have suburban connector buses feeding in at transit exchanges at major trip generators near the peninsula's edge.

[someone123]

The municipality wants to move to a high frequency corridor with transfer system with BRT-like service and has secured federal funding but the province, so far, won't contribute. There's a chance the federal funding will be lost.

The map is likely generated by some software. I do think that the map makes the road network look a bit simpler and the city easier to serve than they are. For example some apparent intersections are not (may be a "Z" shape or "V"), there are grade issues, not many lanes, corridors just don't go anywhere useful, etc.

One of the philosophical roadblocks is that for many years transit there was about expanding more and more into the suburbs. The low-hanging fruit these days is likely more service for the inner city but that may be politically difficult. Halifax has unusually high density inner city areas and unusually low density and poorly connected suburbs, and a strong tall poppy syndrome sort of mentality sometimes.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Not only is that map almost a case study in bad UX, but the underlying philosophy behind how Halifax Metro Transit arranges its routes and probably its scheduling is also a lesson in bad planning.

It looks like the Halifax peninsula is covered by a simple grid of just 5 north-south and 6 east-west corridors, except each corridor has up to a dozen complicated routes, which probably fan out into the distant suburbs to give people from one subdivision a single seat ride into downtown. I wouldn't be surprised if even on streets that have a dozen routes, that there are times when a convoy of buses arrive, followed by 20 minutes of nothing. And I wouldn't be surprised if the suburban one-seat model into downtown results in just a single hourly bus that has to spend half its time deadheading.

They could just take each of those corridors, make it a high frequency route with <10 minute service and a single route designation, and have suburban connector buses feeding in at transit exchanges at major trip generators near the peninsula's edge.

The problem that is causing this mess is actually due to one of their largest employers - The RCN. For a while, you needed at least 10 years in to get a parking pass. That meant that most had to take transit to work or try and find on street parking. That lead to this extreme situation of serving the area by 1 route from the burbs. Notice how Scotia Square is the main hub? That is because it is within walking distance of the base. Now the time for a pass has been removed, but no extra parking, so transit is still the best option.

[Luisito]

I see the bus routes haven't changed much in the past 30 years. I can't tell if the 9 Barrington still runs the same rout but the 7 Gottingen and 1 spring Garden still seem to be the same. Those are pretty much the only buses I ever needed in Halifax.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Not only is that map almost a case study in bad UX, but the underlying philosophy behind how Halifax Metro Transit arranges its routes and probably its scheduling is also a lesson in bad planning.

It looks like the Halifax peninsula is covered by a simple grid of just 5 north-south and 6 east-west corridors, except each corridor has up to a dozen complicated routes, which probably fan out into the distant suburbs to give people from one subdivision a single seat ride into downtown. I wouldn't be surprised if even on streets that have a dozen routes, that there are times when a convoy of buses arrive, followed by 20 minutes of nothing. And I wouldn't be surprised if the suburban one-seat model into downtown results in just a single hourly bus that has to spend half its time deadheading.

They could just take each of those corridors, make it a high frequency route with <10 minute service and a single route designation, and have suburban connector buses feeding in at transit exchanges at major trip generators near the peninsula's edge.

Basically, except a lot of the suburban routes that cause the clutter are peak only and are either for express service or for extra capacity. All the ones with the light and dark bands are peak suburban routes while the regular routes are a fairly simple grid. WIth the express routes, the whole route is peak only, while with the capacity routes peak services, they normally only go as far as a terminal off-peak (usually Bridge or Mumford) and require a transfer to get into town but go all the way during peak.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Luisito

I see the bus routes haven't changed much in the past 30 years. I can't tell if the 9 Barrington still runs the same rout but the 7 Gottingen and 1 spring Garden still seem to be the same. Those are pretty much the only buses I ever needed in Halifax.

They re-did a bunch of routes a year or two ago and adjusted the numbering. The 9 is what the 20 Herring Cove used to be while the 29 is the closest to what the 9 Barrington used to be. I used to have every route memorized in terms of its name, basic routing, and general service levels and now I just know the few I most commonly use and need to use the Transit app.

[MissingMiddler]

I'm not going to lie, I thought this was a joke at first. Yikes.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Basically, except a lot of the suburban routes that cause the clutter are peak only and are either for express service or for extra capacity. All the ones with the light and dark bands are peak suburban routes while the regular routes are a fairly simple grid. WIth the express routes, the whole route is peak only, while with the capacity routes peak services, they normally only go as far as a terminal off-peak (usually Bridge or Mumford) and require a transfer to get into town but go all the way during peak.

I'll admit it's difficult to make a legible map if 12-15 peak-only suburban bus routes travel down the same street, but if they insist on this service model, there are a lot of improvements they could have made to the overall usability of the map.

- For peak-only suburban routes that generally fan out into the same quadrant of town, it might make sense to bundle them to a single route number, show as a single line, and then give them A,B,C suffixes when they branch out in the suburban areas

- Stretches of roads where any combination of bus routes provides under 10 minute frequencies during all service hours, including evenings and weekends, should be highlighted as part of a frequent transit network

- The colours mean nothing. On top of shading frequent transit corridors, there should only be a single colour for lines that run 5am - 1am, the same colour but dashed lines for peak-only or seasonal lines, a colour for express services and a colour for local community shuttles.

You're probably aware of these ideas, since they're common in major system maps, like that of Translink or the TTC.

Without knowing more about the on-ground realities of Halifax, I still feel like the Alderney ferry should have more prominence on the map, given that it is the closest thing to rapid transit in Halifax, and runs at 15 minute frequencies for most of the day. Again, I don't know the context too well, but I'm surprised more of the peak-only suburban routes that cross over the bridges don't just terminate at the ferry terminal on the Dartmouth side. Vancouver is a useful comparator, even if it's quite a bit bigger. While there are still quite a few buses that go over the Lion's Gate bridge at rush hour, they do try to encourage people on the north shore to take the Seabus and connect at Lonsdale Quay.

A tram that ran from Water Street Terminal to Dalhousie would be a good medium capacity, high frequency distributor in the extended core, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself if the province won't even fund a rapid bus plan.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

They re-did a bunch of routes a year or two ago and adjusted the numbering. The 9 is what the 20 Herring Cove used to be while the 29 is the closest to what the 9 Barrington used to be. I used to have every route memorized in terms of its name, basic routing, and general service levels and now I just know the few I most commonly use and need to use the Transit app.

Ah ok cool. Thanks for the update. That's impressive, I only had those three lines memorized. I rarely ventured off the peninsula. And when I did i would call " 429- 6666 or 425-6666.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Without knowing more about the on-ground realities of Halifax, I still feel like the Alderney ferry should have more prominence on the map, given that it is the closest thing to rapid transit in Halifax, and runs at 15 minute frequencies for most of the day. Again, I don't know the context too well, but I'm surprised more of the peak-only suburban routes that cross over the bridges don't just terminate at the ferry terminal on the Dartmouth side. Vancouver is a useful comparator, even if it's quite a bit bigger. While there are still quite a few buses that go over the Lion's Gate bridge at rush hour, they do try to encourage people on the north shore to take the Seabus and connect at Lonsdale Quay.

There are a lot of little quirks in how things connect. For example there is no Waterfront or Union Station equivalent in Halifax. Major routes do not go to the downtown ferry terminal. This problem will get worse since the plan is to expand the downtown ferry terminal and add new ferry routes since commuter rail isn't happening.

I'm not sure about the latest figures but downtown used to have around 1/5 of the employment on the peninsula. The naval base plus shipyard and other marine industries along that stretch are probably in the same ballpark as downtown.

The buses often run along the same route or go to the same terminal but don't come to the same stop, or at least it used to be that way. So while you might have 3 options you may need to pick where you want to wait or run around. Even having to check when different buses will arrive is annoying and may not be reliable.

I think a big missed opportunity with Cogswell is that nobody seems to be contemplating any underground transit infrastructure or ways to integrate the ferries and buses better. There is a big pier at Purdy's Wharf that's mostly unused and connects to a mediocre park and some parking garages that used to front onto the wall of an overpass. That area is also under some height restrictions that don't really serve any purpose. It's pretty likely that 5-10 years from now Halifax will end up with a lot more people taking ferries to a terminal that's a few blocks downhill from a congested new transit mall. That area could be a new focal point for the city with multi-modal transit connections.

A tram that ran from Water Street Terminal to Dalhousie would be a good medium capacity, high frequency distributor in the extended core, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself if the province won't even fund a rapid bus plan.

Yes, this is the kind of thing that makes sense but would likely be considered too much for the city. But maybe attitudes will change. You can make fun of the US for its boutique projects with no ridership but Halifax could use maybe 20% of that mentality. It is a city where there isn't likely to be one big subway or LRT system and a mix of different services is more likely to work well.

[swimmer_spe]

Imagine a singular employer has about 5000 people that cannot park on site. That is what the RCN has done to Halifax. So, now imagine getting 5000 people all to one place by a specific time. If we assume 100 people per bus, that is 50 buses. And that is just for the RCN. That does not include the fact that Halifax is the provincial capital and also the financial and business hub in the Maritimes. Looking at their way of doing things is much like looking at Ottawa's Transitways and how they have one bus to downtown from the suburbs. Another challenge is the fact that there are only 5 entrances to the peninsula.

If Halifax could get a Bedford -Via station commuter train then most of these buses would not be needed.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Imagine a singular employer has about 5000 people that cannot park on site.

CFB Halifax has about 11,000 employees and they say there are about 18,000 others who go there like reservists. It's the largest military base in Canada.

If Halifax could get a Bedford -Via station commuter train then most of these buses would not be needed.

I'm not against commuter rail and I wonder how much it died due to a lack of resolve on the part of councillors doing in camera meetings and CN obstructionism. However, it was overrated. That ROW goes not from downtown but from the South End out to Bedford along a J-shaped route and it is sandwiched between water (which has a population density of 0) and steep hills that are a PITA for pedestrians and transit. I think it was promoted because the Bedford councillor liked to talk about it a lot and it was seen as a cheaper alternative to something like LRT. I think people need to get away from the mentality that they can MacGyver a transit system into existence and start by looking at the region and how much demand there is.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

CFB Halifax has about 11,000 employees and they say there are about 18,000 others who go there like reservists. It's the largest military base in Canada.

And most of them work downtown, but there is only enough parking for about half. Hence the 5000 number.

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not against commuter rail and I wonder how much it died due to a lack of resolve on the part of councillors doing in camera meetings and CN obstructionism. However, was overrated. That ROW goes not from downtown but from the South End out to Bedford along a J-shaped route and it is sandwiched between water (which has a population density of 0) and steep hills that are a PITA for pedestrians and transit.

I think it was promoted because the Bedford councillor liked to talk about it a lot and it was seen as a cheaper alternative to something like LRT.

If they could have gotten it going, they could have then tunneled under the downtown to get to to the Base. Or, They could punch through at the Fairview area to connect to where it needs to. Doing anything for higher order transit will be tough on the peninsula.