General Vancouver Updates

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

is 445 Kingsway the car dealership?

One of them. It's Destination Group, who already developed condos over another of their Kingsway dealerships several years ago.

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by phesto

I asked someone at the City about this. Apparently this site qualifies for the height/density under the Moderate Income Rental policy as an "intersection of two arterials" even though it technically doesn't front on West 16th. As long as an uninterrupted block face has a corner on two arterials, it can qualify. (ie. this site can theoretically have a second tower on the West 16th corner as long as sufficient tower separation).

East 16th Ave is an arterial? I guess a narrow two lane road qualifies in COV.

The city doesn't exactly maintain it as an arterial either. It is so bowed closer to Fraser that if you tried to drive with your car towards the center of the road you might ground it on the hump. Not to mention the dips, bumps and pot holes. Dearly in need to fixing up.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

East 16th Ave is an arterial? I guess a narrow two lane road qualifies in COV.

The city doesn't exactly maintain it as an arterial either. It is so bowed closer to Fraser that if you tried to drive with your car towards the center of the road you might ground it on the hump. Not to mention the dips, bumps and pot holes. Dearly in need to fixing up.

I know trees are nice and all but look at the condition of the sidewalk and that curb lane. Crazy.

[officedweller]

Well, looking at GoogleMaps, 16th Ave. does have a yellow line down the middle.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I know trees are nice and all but look at the condition of the sidewalk and that curb lane. Crazy.

the issue is it is a peat area; not really a tree issue. that's why that whole area is a mess. normally in peat areas the sewers are placed on piles, so chances are the hump in the middle of the road is the sewer main which has not settled like the rest of the road has.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Well, looking at GoogleMaps, 16th Ave. does have a yellow line down the middle.

according to VanMap, it is classified as a "secondary arterial" street.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

East 16th Ave is an arterial? I guess a narrow two lane road qualifies in COV...

Kingsway is literally next door - guess that counts as the second one.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I know trees are nice and all but look at the condition of the sidewalk and that curb lane. Crazy.

It's built on a swamp. That entire area is full of settled everything. The high points are generally from watermains and other items where the city compacted the ground below. The areas around them then sank.

A lot of the houses and fences also lean everywhich way.

The neighbourhood is called Tea Swamp for a reason.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

the issue is it is a peat area; not really a tree issue. that's why that whole area is a mess. normally in peat areas the sewers are placed on piles, so chances are the hump in the middle of the road is the sewer main which has not settled like the rest of the road has.



according to VanMap, it is classified as a "secondary arterial" street.

Yep, nothing like building residential on a peat bog. You have to wonder at what point the pipes burst back up over the pavement!

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Yep, nothing like building residential on a peat bog. You have to wonder at what point the pipes burst back up over the pavement!

A significant area of Kitsilano was a swamp with muskeg and resident muskrats. The native name for the area was (roughly) Haat-sa-lah-nough - ‘Haatsa’ means swamp or lake. the area where Woodwards was built was swampy and had to be filled in. The area around Main and 1st Avenue was a swamp.

Some of the West End had swamp pockets in the forest, particularly around Nicola Street and on the hillside below the high ground between Robson and Davie Street - a stream ran into the sea from a small ravine at the foot of Comox Street

There was a swamp around Trout Lake as well as the ‘Tea Swamp,’ (which gets its name from a plant growing there known as California tea by Cariboo miners).

It appears swamps aren't the limitation to development you seem to think they might be

[jollyburger]

Peat bog map of Vancouver



https://ruthanddavid.com/blog/vancouver-peat-bog/

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

A significant area of Kitsilano was a swamp with muskeg and resident muskrats. The native name for the area was (roughly) Haat-sa-lah-nough - ‘Haatsa’ means swamp or lake. the area where Woodwards was built was swampy and had to be filled in. The area around Main and 1st Avenue was a swamp.

Some of the West End had swamp pockets in the forest, particularly around Nicola Street and on the hillside below the high ground between Robson and Davie Street - a stream ran into the sea from a small ravine at the foot of Comox Street

There was a swamp around Trout Lake as well as the ‘Tea Swamp,’ (which gets its name from a plant growing there known as California tea by Cariboo miners).

It appears swamps aren't the limitation to development you seem to think they might be

Tea Swamp Park is at East 16th and Sophia, so would be the one underlying the area near Fraser we are discussing, not Trout Lake.

https://www.francesbula.com/uncategorize...easant-its-all-because-of-the-tea-swamp/

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Tea Swamp Park is at East 16th and Sophia, so would be the one underlying the area near Fraser we are discussing, not Trout Lake.

You don't say? That's why I used the words 'as well as' to show that Tea Swamp isn't the only boggy bit of land that houses have been developed on in Vancouver. I mentioned the West End, Downtown and Kitsilano too (which was actually a much bigger boggy area than the Tea Swamp). Like the arguments that some tried to advance for not building St Paul's on a former area of False Creek, building on the former Tea Swamp area these days isn't an issue, especially for higher density projects that excavate for underground parking. It wasn't taken sufficiently seriously decades ago, when the early houses and the road was first built, but that's not the case now.

Frank Hart, the city's first undertaker (and furniture maker and opera house owner) recalls travelling on the North Arm Road (the early name for Fraser) over the swamp in his horse-drawn hearse. The 'road' cut through the swamp around 16th and 17th today - but then it was just a clearing in the forest. The road 'was just corduroy; just round logs, about ten feet diameter, laid in the wet earth and muskeg.' "We mired down in going to the [Mountain View] Cemetery with four horses on the new hearse. Everybody got out to walk across the Tea Swamp. It was a funeral of the first alderman, Alderman Humphries, and a masonic funeral. It was all right until we reached the Tea Swamp, then things began to happen. The road had been corduroyed and the timbers had slipped out of place, so one of our horses fell between the corduroy or timbers; then the front wheel went down. I was scared the horses would pull it [hearse] to pieces, and it cost 10 or 15 hundred dollars".

[Migrant_Coconut]

We're building the new St Paul's on a former swamp, and that's definitely bigger and heavier than a midrise, so I don't see what the problem is.

[Jimbo604]

The city, with all its experience and knowledge could likely build a decent, long lasting road, even on swampy ground, as per the examples others mentioned above.

The issue is they haven't bothered to fix it.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

The city, with all its experience and knowledge could likely build a decent, long lasting road, even on swampy ground, as per the examples others mentioned above.

The issue is they haven't bothered to fix it.

Have you seen how much effort they're putting into the foundation at St. Pauls? That's a lot of money, time, and construction noise.

Now imagine the city spending that much money on a small arterial street, and pissing off every neighbour for blocks due to noise, vibration and damage to their own (sinking) homes.

This sounds like a popular choice if I ever heard one. I just drive 30km/h down that part of 16th. Meh.

[Migrant_Coconut]

^ This. Modern paved asphalt gets more wear and tear than any other roads in history, so it's meant to be torn up and repaved cheaply and quickly... emphasis on "quickly" in the case of 16th.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

The city, with all its experience and knowledge could likely build a decent, long lasting road, even on swampy ground, as per the examples others mentioned above.

The issue is they haven't bothered to fix it.

the issue is it is cheaper to fix it once it is bad enough. thats why the sewers are on piles, expensive to fix and have to stay constantly sloped. cars, people can go over bumps.

it just isnt worth the $$$ to make the road perfect in the peat areas.

there is a report from the 90s where in Kerrisdale a section of peat was removed to fix the road. they dug out all the peat to fix the road. the study said it worked great! but was expensive and not worth the $$$

[officedweller]

Pic of Richards St. when they cut into it for the bike lane planters.
You can see the thickness of the underlying foundation.

Pic by me Sept 2020:

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Have you seen how much effort they're putting into the foundation at St. Pauls? That's a lot of money, time, and construction noise.

Now imagine the city spending that much money on a small arterial street, and pissing off every neighbour for blocks due to noise, vibration and damage to their own (sinking) homes.

This sounds like a popular choice if I ever heard one. I just drive 30km/h down that part of 16th. Meh.

I agree, 30km is the way..

The issue of fixing the road did come up because of the 14 storey building they want to put on 16th... So they're going to be spending a lot of time, effort, money, construction noise, potential damage to surroundings whether 16th is fixed or not?...

[GenWhy?]

What's kinda funny is that 3245 Fraser St the Level 1 plan and the exterior 4-storeys are I think 95% identical to the previous condo version.

With the peat... how deep would that been an issue? I would assume at least 3 levels of parkade here due to the small site and amount of parking for bikes (30' deep) then footings might be 40' deep. I know nothing about peat but I'd imagine 40" deep is a non-issue.