Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[613Steve]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That's what makes it a white elephant. It's a Billion dollar line that doesn't serve a purpose because it was cut short. Now the Crosstown and the Scarborough Subway will sort of serve in part the purpose Sheppard should have.

Looking at where it was built, at the far north end of Toronto, serving low-density suburbs (it has densified since) was a strange choice when the downtown portion was overcrowded even then.

Interesting to think that this Line was built for $1 Billion while the original Trillium Line was built around the same time for $21 million, 48 times more expensive, yet only carried 2.5 times more people (at Trillium's peak in Fall 2019). Even if you add $47 million to the Trillium's initial price tag to account for the 2013 expansion (adjusted down for inflation) it's a 14.7 time price difference.

I think Stage 2 Trillium will end up being a white elephant. $700 million+ for two more stations along the existing corridor and no improvement to service. I bet the Airport and Riverside South expansions won't add more than 2,500 riders per day, at best. Any significant ridership increases will come from the Walkley to Bayview stretch.

I'm increasingly convinced that Stage 3 to Stittsville will be a white elephant. Running along the highway where very few people live with probably no improvements in travel time. Could be several billion down the train if it gets built.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That's what makes it a white elephant. It's a Billion dollar line that doesn't serve a purpose because it was cut short. Now the Crosstown and the Scarborough Subway will sort of serve in part the purpose Sheppard should have.

Looking at where it was built, at the far north end of Toronto, serving low-density suburbs (it has densified since) was a strange choice when the downtown portion was overcrowded even then.

Interesting to think that this Line was built for $1 Billion while the original Trillium Line was built around the same time for $21 million, 48 times more expensive, yet only carried 2.5 times more people (at Trillium's peak in Fall 2019). Even if you add $47 million to the Trillium's initial price tag to account for the 2013 expansion (adjusted down for inflation) it's a 14.7 time price difference.

I think Stage 2 Trillium will end up being a white elephant. $700 million+ for two more stations along the existing corridor and no improvement to service. I bet the Airport and Riverside South expansions won't add more than 2,500 riders per day, at best. Any significant ridership increases will come from the Walkley to Bayview stretch.

That is why when they announced that they were doing the Crosstown, I found it silly. They could have just extended this line instead. My hope is that once the Ontario line is extended far enough north, the Sheppard Line is extended to meet it.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is why when they announced that they were doing the Crosstown, I found it silly. They could have just extended this line instead. My hope is that once the Ontario line is extended far enough north, the Sheppard Line is extended to meet it.

No matter my disagreements with the Ford Government, I have to give them credit for the progress on the Toronto transit file. Scarborough Subway (though I don't agree with the option chosen), Crosstown + west extension, Finch, Yonge, the Ontario Line (right sized and technology to boot)...

If only we could get that kind of momentum in Ottawa. Stage 2 is u/c, but it adds to an underbuilt Transitway conversion, and Trillium is $700 million+ for not much improvement. Stage 3 has support on paper, but won't result in much improvement or ridership growth for the cost, so not such a great business case. BRT plans are all on ice. Nothing is planned for our high-density, high-ridership, low reliability urban areas.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Orleans Blvd LRT Station will be another white elephant once it is built, no reason for this stop. 10th Line would have been much better, and setup direct feeders up from 10th Line Fallingbrook, Queenswood, Avalon areas

While I acknowledge other station locations may have been better in terms of density or scope for growth if it was an either/or proposition (like Jasmine or Centrum which were mentioned in reply to this), I don't personally see Orleans Blvd/Convent Glen Station as a white elephant.

In terms of density, Northwest Orleans, including the areas around the station, has more dense housing than many other parts of Orleans. For example, at the far end of Orleans Blvd in the North, you have a large number of stacked condos (2 floors each) with perhaps as many as 20 of those units per individual building (with about 13 buildings I believe). Elsewhere along Orleans Blvd, you have dense row homes that do not have garages (Ideal Village Co-op) and dense row houses with garages in an enclosed area with tight streets (Carleton Condominiums). There are large residences geared to seniors too like Bruyere Village, Residence St. Louis and Symphony Senior Living Orleans (for more mobile residents, staff and visitors). Beyond those, you have a large number of more typical suburban singe family homes all around the station too, which are not nearly as numerous around Tenth Line (though I did support a station there and the area has some larger buildings that went up there and some higher density homes built recently).

Beyond the residential reasons for a station, this Orleans Blvd/Convent Glen location is also close to about 6 schools, including two high schools (Cairine Wilson and Garneau), a strip mall offering a pretty good assortment of services (restaurants, LCBO, cannabis , pharmacy, dollar store, grocery store and more), and access to recreational paths for walking, biking and cross country skiing. The station also provides access to St Joseph, which has a lot of restaurants, services, stores and amenities, right about in the middle of it between Jeanne D'Arc and Place D'Orleans station. This represents not only the existing opportunities but the possibility of redeveloping the strip malls and other parts of St Joseph with condo towers similar to Westboro and building a more modern main street.

So all of these places and attractions would be within about 15 minutes or so from the station, hopefully generating a good amount of walk up traffic rather than bus transfers. Some of the area served may have alternatives (e.g. a longer but still feasible walk/trip to Jeanne D'Arc or Place D'Orleans instead) but other parts would definitely not be well served if the station just disappeared.

So ultimately it would have nice to have some of the other stations we talked about along this extension (Jasmine, Centrum and Tenthline) but I think Orleans Blvd/Convent Glen makes a better case for itself than some people may realize!

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Orleans Blvd LRT Station will be another white elephant once it is built, no reason for this stop. 10th Line would have been much better, and setup direct feeders up from 10th Line Fallingbrook, Queenswood, Avalon areas

The station at Orleans Blvd (the future Convent Glen LRT Station) is meant to be a walk-in station for those live nearby. That being said, some local routes I expect will be reorganized to serve the station.

[J.OT13]

Lyon plastered with Sens advertisement.

Photo from RailFans Discord. Haven't asked for this person's permission to pass his pics through a third party photo uploader, so only posting from Discord.

[SL123]

I like it! It makes the station less sterile looking.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SL123

I like it! It makes the station less sterile looking.

Agreed. Even better when it's a local sports team!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Lyon plastered with Sens advertisement.

Photo from RailFans Discord. Haven't asked for this person's permission to pass his pics through a third party photo uploader, so only posting from Discord.

I am wondering why that station was chosen when it is not the one where they play.

[MountainView]

That's *big* city vibes. Imagine this type of advertisement at Pimisi or Bayview when they have an arena at Lebreton Flats. It's obviously an advertisement for the team, but that type of stuff gives off positive energy for fans when they get off transit and walk to the arena.
Stuff like this is seen in other major cities where their transit stop is adjacent to a sport's stadium/arena.

[lrt's friend]

I think we should start a petition to rename Rideau station to Stinkhole Station. It isn't getting better. The stench starts to seep into the trains as soon as the trains descend into the tunnel after uOttawa station. How embarrassing this is for Ottawa.

[Richard Eade]

I assume that the Confederation Line has been running well after its Saturday shut-down for testing. I hope that it was worth it to remove the train from service on one of the few days when there was actually something happening downtown to draw in lots of people – the Help Santa Toy Parade. It inconvenienced a lot of people, so they better be able to use the data collected to quickly get the trains running the way they were originally supposed to work.

Was there some reason that the shut-down couldn’t have been on the Sunday – when there is even lower ridership and there weren’t hundreds of people going down to watch a parade? Does anyone think that OC Transpo even considered the people going to the parade when they agreed that RTG/RTM could shut-down the line? I don’t.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I assume that the Confederation Line has been running well after its Saturday shut-down for testing. I hope that it was worth it to remove the train from service on one of the few days when there was actually something happening downtown to draw in lots of people – the Help Santa Toy Parade. It inconvenienced a lot of people, so they better be able to use the data collected to quickly get the trains running the way they were originally supposed to work.

Was there some reason that the shut-down couldn’t have been on the Sunday – when there is even lower ridership and there weren’t hundreds of people going down to watch a parade? Does anyone think that OC Transpo even considered the people going to the parade when they agreed that RTG/RTM could shut-down the line? I don’t.

It is quite frustrating that they shut it down on Saturday, the same day as the parade. I'm sure no reason was disclosed as to why they could not have done it on Sunday. I assume staffing issues.

I'm with you; really hope we get something out of it. The slow orders got old, fast.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I assume that the Confederation Line has been running well after its Saturday shut-down for testing. I hope that it was worth it to remove the train from service on one of the few days when there was actually something happening downtown to draw in lots of people – the Help Santa Toy Parade. It inconvenienced a lot of people, so they better be able to use the data collected to quickly get the trains running the way they were originally supposed to work.

Was there some reason that the shut-down couldn’t have been on the Sunday – when there is even lower ridership and there weren’t hundreds of people going down to watch a parade? Does anyone think that OC Transpo even considered the people going to the parade when they agreed that RTG/RTM could shut-down the line? I don’t.

I agree, but thinking beyond this, isn't Bank our preferred parade route? I was at the Grey Cup celebration parade in 2016, which also ran down Bank.

Isn't this just another little justification for considering a Bank Street subway in the future? I know, shut-up. After all, parades greatly disrupt transit on Bank, yet we want people to come, preferably without a car.

What you described is a bit of small town mentality. If we want re-invigorate downtown and other central neighbourhoods, we need to make it easy to get there, and reduce transit disruptions at crucial times. Think about all those people who might shop at local businesses or eat at local restaurants. They are crying for business.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I agree, but thinking beyond this, isn't Bank our preferred parade route? I was at the Grey Cup celebration parade in 2016, which also ran down Bank.

Isn't this just another little justification for considering a Bank Street subway in the future? I know, shut-up. After all, parades greatly disrupt transit on Bank, yet we want people to come, preferably without a car.

I can see the justification for a Bank Subway within the next 20 years (dense corridor, major destinations, endless signalized intersections, direct to downtown airport service, relieve Line 2 and Bayview), but I'm not sure a couple annual parades would have add any weight to the list of arguments in favour.

[Richard Eade]

Well, yes and no.

Just to make way for a couple of parades is not a good reason to bury a transit line. However, the couple of parades adds to a number of other things that happen along Bank Street. Remember, Bank is known for its pedestrian atmosphere; which leads folks to want to hold their festivals there. It’s just as the pedestrian nature of Sparks Street is why it hosts events like the Busker Fest and Ribfest.

Throughout the year, there are usually a few festivals that shut a block or more of Bank. This past summer, there was the entertaining ‘Golden Oldies’ event (sorry, but I forget the name they used), which had old-style roller-skating. There has been GLOW FEST, silent concerts, and other events. Each of these disrupt traffic – which includes surface transit.

Yes, there are ‘work-arounds’ (detours) for the buses, but if there were a subway, then transit would not be adversely affected. In fact, if it were only general traffic that it inconvenienced, I would say “Go for MORE festivals along Bank.”

So, it isn’t that a couple of parades makes the difference. It is additive. There are just two of many events that have been running on Bank – and two of the many more that could be running.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Throughout the year, there are usually a few festivals that shut a block or more of Bank.

There really shouldn't be.

[Richard Eade]

We will just have to disagree on this one, Uhuniau. I think that the roadways should be public property - usable for a number of different purposes. There should be street-hockey games on residential streets (forcing cars to slow, and even stop, while the game moves to the side). There should be festivals and events held on streets, such as block-parties.

I agree that MAJOR transportation routes should be maintained, but many of the roads that we drive on should not be exclusively for cars. I think that Bank Street is a street that doesn't need to have only cars on its surface. An array of black and white tiles for a roller-rink is just fine, on occasion.

However, what I don't like to see is public transit disrupted by road closures. There will, of course, be times when it is unavoidable, but, for the most part, the main corridors of the transit network should remain as free-flowing as practical. Putting transit lines in their own lanes or under ground should be considered.

Since this thread is about the Confederation Line, I will use it as a good example. The old Central Transitway was not reliable for moving transit, so a tunnel was dug under the city's core. I think that we can all agree that this took transit out of the way, as far as many disruptions were concerned. It also freed up surface space for other road uses - such as dedicated bike lanes.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Well, yes and no.

Just to make way for a couple of parades is not a good reason to bury a transit line. However, the couple of parades adds to a number of other things that happen along Bank Street. Remember, Bank is known for its pedestrian atmosphere; which leads folks to want to hold their festivals there. It’s just as the pedestrian nature of Sparks Street is why it hosts events like the Busker Fest and Ribfest.

Throughout the year, there are usually a few festivals that shut a block or more of Bank. This past summer, there was the entertaining ‘Golden Oldies’ event (sorry, but I forget the name they used), which had old-style roller-skating. There has been GLOW FEST, silent concerts, and other events. Each of these disrupt traffic – which includes surface transit.

Yes, there are ‘work-arounds’ (detours) for the buses, but if there were a subway, then transit would not be adversely affected. In fact, if it were only general traffic that it inconvenienced, I would say “Go for MORE festivals along Bank.”

So, it isn’t that a couple of parades makes the difference. It is additive. There are just two of many events that have been running on Bank – and two of the many more that could be running.

I don't favour street closures on an ongoing basis in most cases. But, street closures for specific events, usually on weekends and holidays I applaud. It makes our city a more lively and interesting place. If we have segregated transit that does not get disrupted by these events, we will be encouraging transit use and more attendance. Also, if we can keep the city moving, more such events are likely to take place.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I think that Bank Street is a street that doesn't need to have only cars on its surface.

It might not need to have only cars on its surface, but it absolutely needs to have transit on its surface, and that transit needs to have priority in how that street is used. There is no alternative.

An array of black and white tiles for a roller-rink is just fine, on occasion.

The problem is it's on too many occasions, and the mitigation measures for transit users are both grudging and —. I don't know why this city and its transit authority are always so keen to disrupt the principle transit service for the most transit-friendly and transit-dependent neighbourhoods, and to do so in a way that greatly inconveniences those best transit customers.

I think that we can all agree that this took transit out of the way, as far as many disruptions were concerned. It also freed up surface space for other road uses - such as dedicated bike lanes.

Or street parties. Have them on Albert.