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  #381  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mikevbar1 View Post
It's quite indicative of where the city is at nowadays. I would be partial to holding off on Its development (and similar lots that are in the absolute core of the city) if we can prioritize them to be commercial/office buildings, even if they are somewhat short. Allowing the historic business centre to becoming primarily residential is something that symbolically rubs me the wrong way, even if I know it is inevitable.

This is getting off-topic, but I do have a general question for others. With Hamilton being on the cusp of having two regional-scale industrial areas in the coming decade (AEGD & the Stelco lands redevelopment), could there be a case for businesses to choose to locate downtown once more?
Makes more sense to me to build the condos first, then the commercial will naturally follow once the demand for them is there.
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  #382  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 7:12 PM
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Absolutely agree- it's actually very surprising just how many lots still sit without proposals, especially right at the core. In the 'financial district' you can still find parking between all the bank towers, and east of James there are more lots than buildings (when downtown). A whole new city can be borne on these.
Parking lots in Hamilton are surprisingly profitable, particularly in the immediate core. There is a reason the parking lots to see development proposals so far are generally on the edge of the core, as those are with lower parking pricing. The ones right downtown charge $15 a day in parking, and generally have fairly high occupancy rates.

Development in Hamilton simply didn't pencil out financially until as recently as 2 or 3 years ago for most builders. That has now changed and thus the rush of new proposals, but something like high cashflow from parking fees can still tip the land value of some sites high enough that developers will look elsewhere for cheaper sites first. And uses like run down autoshops, partially abandoned buildings, small office or retail buildings, etc. can actually have a lower base land value, meaning that developers want to develop those first.

As more and more development sites downtown get snapped up, and that's now happening very, very quickly, developers will start looking at higher land cost sites. Including very profitable surface lots.
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  #383  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
Makes more sense to me to build the condos first, then the commercial will naturally follow once the demand for them is there.
I suppose this is where "mixed-use" comes in. I agree there is enough opportunity across downtown for offices and commercial, even with more and more condos. I'd just like to see these sites restored to their historic prominence if we can, by encouraging employment uses before an inevitable condo proposal comes by. While we can't force anyone to build anything, clearly somebody is holding on to those aforementioned parking lots. They must see some potential in their sites that Isn't worth acting upon yet.
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  #384  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 7:17 PM
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Some variation in tower heights would be welcome. Instead of 3 at 30 floors, what about a 35, a 32, and a 26 to go with the 24-storey "little guy"? Or go taller with two buildings, and have a couple of 12 to 16 floor mid-rises on the site?

I don't worry about Hamilton having a table-top skyline, though I'm definitely not in favour of the height limit. The downtown not being completely flat helps. TV City will look huge just based on it being along the crest of the sandbar ridge that runs west of the core. We already see this with Platinum looking much taller than its size because of where it is situated.

And there are lots of places for future "signature" towers that exceed the escarpment elevation planning ideal. For those I expect the city to push for unique and quality architecture.

Regardless, this development -- if it ends up looking like those renders illustrate -- will interact with James and York MUCH better than the City Centre does. And it will be a boon for the shops and restaurants along James, King William, King, Jackson Square, and beyond.
The height limit isn't a flat 30-storey limit, it's the height of the escarpment. Which means that areas of the downtown on a higher elevation actually have a shorter height limit. Apex condos, at 23 storeys, is right at the height limit, for example, as it's on a large ridge. I believe Platinum is similar.

Television City will look tall as it is about 15 metres taller than the height limit.

The reality is that if the height limit stays, most of the downtown will end up getting developed at exactly the same geodetic height. The storey counts will vary based on where in the downtown you are, but the skyline from a distance would look dead flat, outside of the few exceptions which already exist or have been approved (Television City, 75 James, etc.)
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  #385  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Parking lots in Hamilton are surprisingly profitable, particularly in the immediate core. There is a reason the parking lots to see development proposals so far are generally on the edge of the core, as those are with lower parking pricing. The ones right downtown charge $15 a day in parking, and generally have fairly high occupancy rates.

Development in Hamilton simply didn't pencil out financially until as recently as 2 or 3 years ago for most builders. That has now changed and thus the rush of new proposals, but something like high cashflow from parking fees can still tip the land value of some sites high enough that developers will look elsewhere for cheaper sites first. And uses like run down autoshops, partially abandoned buildings, small office or retail buildings, etc. can actually have a lower base land value, meaning that developers want to develop those first.

As more and more development sites downtown get snapped up, and that's now happening very, very quickly, developers will start looking at higher land cost sites. Including very profitable surface lots.
This fills in some gaps of understanding in my last post. Sounds to me like it'll be a slow push into the core in the coming years/decades. I would've thought those parking lots would be the first to go due to higher land values, but I guess that has simply resulted in profitable parking lots for the time being.
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  #386  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2022, 2:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Not sure why there are so many complaints here. the development isn't a looker, but Hamilton is challenging to work in from that end given the low condo and rent prices that don't give a lot of money for nice looking projects.

This one with the revised design is full of nice mini-retail units at grade which should make it an excellent hub of activity within the core, with intimate pedestrian only spaces and cars relegated to the streets and to the underground parking garage. Generally it's a great design from a planning perspective, IMO.

The height thing we all know is the city's problem with them not wanting anything taller than the escarpment.

Jackson Square has already said "no' to integration here. It's not happening.
It's because of WHERE it is - that spot should have the most beautiful thing our city can showcase- it is THE center of the city, taking up a huge plot of land. We want to do it right this time.
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  #387  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 2:24 PM
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Hamilton residents, store owners saying goodbye to City Centre mall, as doors to close Dec. 26
A pop-up market this weekend is celebrating the space — and the people who still work there

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/...4dR8qMK7822WaJ1IpuwFPnq_6W24jElFt-Xm5uVw

When Whitney McMeekin goes to Hamilton's City Centre, it's usually because she wants to be alone. The mall, with its lofty ceilings, skylights and balconies, doesn't get the foot traffic it once did when it was the city's downtown Eaton's headquarters.

These days, it's a unique, central spot, a series of bright, empty hallways beside the comparatively dark yet busy Jackson Square mall. With its pastel colours, glass elevator and public art, the City Centre seems straight out of an era long forgotten in modern commerce.

"It's like going back in time," says McMeekin, who runs a clothing store on nearby King Street East. She is also the co-founder of Hamilton Flea, which is hosting a pop-up market and family dance party at the City Centre on Saturday.

McMeekin says the event is the chance for the community to say goodbye to the 32-year-old shopping centre, with a public closing date set for the end of year and demolition expected to begin in a few months.

"As much as I wish it was busy and that the businesses had tons of customers, I also love that it's a place I can come and just really experience it and be alone," she said, describing the atmosphere of the space in more recent times.

"I feel like, also, everyone dreams a bit when they're in here, about what could be here. And I think what I find so sad about it is that we all have that feeling, but yet it's kind of going to be gone."

Store owners told to vacate by the new year
The mall's remaining store operators – there aren't many left – have been told to vacate their units after December holidays, as several told CBC Hamilton during a recent visit.

The mall was sold to IN8 Developments in 2019, and the company plans to build four residential towers on the site, ranging between 26 and 30 storeys tall, above a nine-storey podium, said City of Hamilton spokesperson Michelle Shantz.

The plan has conditional approval from the city, pending a series of required studies, plans and fees, Shantz told CBC Hamilton this week.

"Imagine if it was a mall-themed condo," said McMeekin, as she looked out over the City Centre from a third-floor balcony. "That would be dreamy."

IN8 president Darryl Firsten says his company, which has partnered with Harlo Capital on the project, expects to get its final approval and building permit very soon, and is planning for demolition of the City Centre to start in February.

He says the demolition will take most of the year, with construction of the nearly 2,000-condo project to take close to a decade.

"Boxing day is the last day" the mall will be open to the public, he told CBC Hamilton on Thursday. "Everyone will be out of the building by Jan. 10."

Firsten says the units will range between studios and three-bedroom condos, but says price point have not been set. The project is now expected to cost more than $1 billion, he added, a jump from the $700 million projected when it was first announced, in large part due to inflation.

Units in the building will start to go on sale in late 2023, Firsten says, adding that the development will have street-level retail that he hopes will integrate into the community better than the long, brick wall of the City Centre.

He says it will also integrate some elements from the old building, such as the clock tower that originally came from Hamilton's old City Hall.

"We honour the clock tower and its history in the new development," he said, noting it would be relocated into a "a huge pedestrian courtyard area."

IN8 is also planning another condo development in Hamilton at 1107 Main St. W., the current location of the now-closed Grace Lutheran Church.
.....
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  #388  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 3:24 PM
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key points:

- demolition starts in February, expected to take about a year
- condos start sales next fall
- building has conditional approval
- expected to take nearly a decade to build out the entire complex

I feel like we are starting to see a real ramp of construction downtown now. We saw all those proposals a year or two ago and a surprising amount of them are moving along. 2023 could see the start of construction of 15+ new buildings downtown, by my count..
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  #389  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
key points:

- demolition starts in February, expected to take about a year
- condos start sales next fall
- building has conditional approval
- expected to take nearly a decade to build out the entire complex

I feel like we are starting to see a real ramp of construction downtown now. We saw all those proposals a year or two ago and a surprising amount of them are moving along. 2023 could see the start of construction of 15+ new buildings downtown, by my count..
Sheesh I'll be like 50 by the time it's done..

I really wish they had kept the skylight concept in parts - but yeah I echo the sentiments exactly from that article - you get this haunting loneliness feeling and going back in time when you go in there, to the time of the eatons center when it was bustling and full of life - and then this eerie feeling of what could be - I will always like it for its beautiful light peering though. Very much getting the same vibes as when eatons was closing..

but at least they're keeping the clock tower. It's something.
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  #390  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 9:10 PM
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So crazy that this is coming down and Jackson Square somehow continues on with its early 70's architecture / low ceilings / concrete bunker . Excited to see new life and investment, but do fear that we will have a massive vacant lot for 5+ years. I certainly hope that IN8 has deep deep pockets - that demo is going to be a heap of negative cashflow.
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  #391  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by King&James View Post
So crazy that this is coming down and Jackson Square somehow continues on with its early 70's architecture / low ceilings / concrete bunker . Excited to see new life and investment, but do fear that we will have a massive vacant lot for 5+ years. I certainly hope that IN8 has deep deep pockets - that demo is going to be a heap of negative cashflow.
Demolishing jackson would be a nightmare just because of the maze they made that entire complex.. I dunno I kinda like it - it's one of the few places I can just wander around inside and get lost in the city. Although honestly I mostly just go to Laura secord and the theatre - if that laura secord ever goes under I will be seriously depressed lol.. I need my jelly fruits!
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  #392  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 11:07 PM
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That huge empty land at the corner of James and York is gonna look really weird.
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  #393  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 2:16 AM
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Hope Perfect Plate found a good spot somewhere.
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  #394  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 6:14 AM
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That huge empty land at the corner of James and York is gonna look really weird.
I'm not sure it's the best idea to have it there.. feels like it's gonna become a great place for .. disrespectable people to hang out.. and esp the inner courtyard at night - hope they put up lots of surveillance..

I mean, it's not like jackson attracts the best kinds of people - I've seen crack addicts, people punching each other in the face, screaming mental issues people, homeless people, junkies.. just on the corner of king and james, and thats in the public spotlight.. one thing about that giant brick wall along james, it kept vandalism down to spraypainting - imagine how many broken windows will occur in this area..

maybe I'm just being cynical, or maybe I've just seen too much of hamiltons history to know people with mental issues don't need reasons to do things, they just do them..

then again.. the jackson center windows along james remained intact.. that inner courtyard is still bothering me though, just feels like a bad potential brewing at night time.. in a city where homeless people shoot up in alleyways..
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  #395  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 6:31 AM
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I mean I assume before construction they will have it fenced off, so nobody will be hanging out on the vacant lot. It will ßurely look odd and not be an encouraging spot for pedestrians, but once construction starts up, I find it actually makes it feel filled up and fine. King William was bustling this past summer despite a giant construction site next to it.
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  #396  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 2:49 PM
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I think he's referring more to the courtyard of the new development. Fortunately, the advantage of owner occupied developments like this one is that owners don't tolerate that type of thing. The board of directors will shut that down quickly.
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  #397  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 5:09 PM
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I think he's referring more to the courtyard of the new development. Fortunately, the advantage of owner occupied developments like this one is that owners don't tolerate that type of thing. The board of directors will shut that down quickly.
Yes I was, and I certainly hope so. Maybe it can even be gated so as to only let tenants in after hours. I mean why does anyone need to use the courtyard that doesn't live there at say midnight.
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  #398  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 5:48 PM
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Yes I was, and I certainly hope so. Maybe it can even be gated so as to only let tenants in after hours. I mean why does anyone need to use the courtyard that doesn't live there at say midnight.
My understanding was that there would be retail facing inward. It's not the kind of space I'd expect to attract less than optimal activities since there's going to be so many people watching and there should almost always be people walking around.
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  #399  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 8:31 PM
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My understanding was that there would be retail facing inward. It's not the kind of space I'd expect to attract less than optimal activities since there's going to be so many people watching and there should almost always be people walking around.
Except for the fact businesses wont be open after business hours and most people will be asleep during the hours most people do "less than optimal activities" - and if people don't expect crazies and drunks to be staggering around here shouting then they clearly are not used to hamiltons nightlife specimens haha

and no there isn't gonna be "tons" of people walking around late at night - there will be no reason to - hamilton doesn't really have a 3 am nightlife, and esp not in that area - there is going to be a period of time - probably between 10 pm and 6 am where there is nobody traversing here, and thus perfect times for people to do shenanigans here - and itll be remote enough that it's not viewable by any busy street. There's not gonna be tons of people wandering around - it's gonna be the exact same situation as above jackson - where it's a big open place and not a lot of people viewing what's going on. This area is gonna need to have some heavy surveillance, maybe even some night watch guys on board.

And you know there are gonna be homeless people trying to camp out here. It's out of the way enough for regular people to not notice it.

when someone is shouting and throwing — at 2 or 4 in the morning in this courtyard.. or shooting up under the overhang, or making drug deals in the corners.. yeah it's gonna happen - it's not an if, it's a when.
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  #400  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2022, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronamut View Post
Except for the fact businesses wont be open after business hours and most people will be asleep during the hours most people do "less than optimal activities" - and if people don't expect crazies and drunks to be staggering around here shouting then they clearly are not used to hamiltons nightlife specimens haha

and no there isn't gonna be "tons" of people walking around late at night - there will be no reason to - hamilton doesn't really have a 3 am nightlife, and esp not in that area - there is going to be a period of time - probably between 10 pm and 6 am where there is nobody traversing here, and thus perfect times for people to do shenanigans here - and itll be remote enough that it's not viewable by any busy street. There's not gonna be tons of people wandering around - it's gonna be the exact same situation as above jackson - where it's a big open place and not a lot of people viewing what's going on. This area is gonna need to have some heavy surveillance, maybe even some night watch guys on board.

And you know there are gonna be homeless people trying to camp out here. It's out of the way enough for regular people to not notice it.

when someone is shouting and throwing — at 2 or 4 in the morning in this courtyard.. or shooting up under the overhang, or making drug deals in the corners.. yeah it's gonna happen - it's not an if, it's a when.
Places like Vancouver -- with arguably the worst drug problem in Canada -- are able to maintain some public spaces/plazas without constantly experiencing what you describe. The city will also never progress if we keep using this mindset that we can't have nice things because "the city already —, "too many druggies", "too many crazies", etc.

Including public spaces like this attract your average young person, families, etc, and as more of those kinds move in it will dilute the "problem people", ultimately improving the city. And like you said, an increased security/police presence would likely help.

Build it a deal with the issues people may cause. Don't NOT build it because of what "may" happen.
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