PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

I disagree with this thinking. We need to transform RR from a 9-5 model to all day service model serving the whole region. RR is lagging behind on recovering ridership and the pandemic sped up the whole idea that 9-5 is not the primary reason to use RR. While we not add a stop to Girard we need more connections to Temple station. It's very disconnected from the bus network.

Completely agree. The more steps taken to move septas regional system into more of a subway system the better. People in the suburbs wouldn't even notice the extra stops if septa can deliver more frequent service. A few extra minutes in a nice train as you make a few extra stops is much more preferable than missing your train by a minute and knowing you'll have to wait 40 minutes for the next one. Running a 9-5 peak commuter schedule is laughably antiquated and not how most people use transit.

Patco is basically a suburban commutter rail line and yet they manage to have trains coming at least every 20 minutes except for about 4 hrs in the middle of the night, and it was even better prior to covid.

There's really no excuse as to why septa can't do this. It should at least be a priority before a stupid train to KOP.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by allovertown

There's really no excuse as to why septa can't do this.

The infrastructure is 100% not in place on most of the lines for any service with headways shorter than 30 minutes. The Airport Line needs several dozen million in upgrades before it can be brought down to 20 minute headways, and the case is similar with the Norristown, Doylestown, and Warminster lines.

It's not just about the effects that running more service has on each individual line, either. It's the effect on the network. The SEPTA Main between Jenkintown and 30th Street is pretty much capacity as it stands; the at grade interlockings with the Manayunk/Norristown, CHE, and Fox Chase lines prevent any more trains than currently run, especially at rush hour.

This is why the whole "Reimagining Regional Rail" project is going to take years to be realized. There is so much that goes into adding service on a line, even stuff we haven't touched (staffing, equipment, etc).

Don't disagree that this should take precedent over certain other projects.

[summersm343]

Mejuri is going into the Lush space on Walnut.

[McBane]

And as long as RR runs less often and costs double, it's going to be a challenge. But of course, it goes without saying, I'd love to see at least some lines operate more like the subway and trolley system. Disappointed to see it's not feasible.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

The infrastructure is 100% not in place on most of the lines for any service with headways shorter than 30 minutes. The Airport Line needs several dozen million in upgrades before it can be brought down to 20 minute headways, and the case is similar with the Norristown, Doylestown, and Warminster lines.

It's not just about the effects that running more service has on each individual line, either. It's the effect on the network. The SEPTA Main between Jenkintown and 30th Street is pretty much capacity as it stands; the at grade interlockings with the Manayunk/Norristown, CHE, and Fox Chase lines prevent any more trains than currently run, especially at rush hour.

This is why the whole "Reimagining Regional Rail" project is going to take years to be realized. There is so much that goes into adding service on a line, even stuff we haven't touched (staffing, equipment, etc).

Don't disagree that this should take precedent over certain other projects.

I understand it will cost money to accomplish this. But the KOP line is projected to be a multi billion dollar project. My main point is it's hard to imagine why septa is doing anything before improving what is arguably its greatest asset in order to use it more efficiently. These types of charges would have an enormous impact on the quality of transit in Philadelphia.

And to your point that many lines are already running at capacity at rush hour, the first thing that could be done would by to run trains more frequently when it's not rush hour. If you stay after work to grab dinner, once you're past seven or so, you're looking at one hour headways! It's even like this in the middle of the day, waiting an hour between trains is terrible.

I get that there may not be great demand to justify the added expense immediately. But 1hr headways provide people with the type of discouragement that just makes them decide to not even consider rail.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

I disagree with this thinking. We need to transform RR from a 9-5 model to all day service model serving the whole region. RR is lagging behind on recovering ridership and the pandemic sped up the whole idea that 9-5 is not the primary reason to use RR. While we not add a stop to Girard we need more connections to Temple station. It's very disconnected from the bus network.

Agreed. Add to that, trips that originate (and end) in the city should be the same price as the subway.

[PHLtoNYC]

This turned out nice.

Brick Overbuild Close to Completion Near 2nd & Market
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/old-city/brick-overbuild-close-to-completion-near-2nd-market

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

This turned out nice.

Brick Overbuild Close to Completion Near 2nd & Market
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/old-city/brick-overbuild-close-to-completion-near-2nd-market

Agreed. A good solution to add more units

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Agreed. A good solution to add more units

Eh.

Bigger windows and maybe a cornice would have been nice. The Yellow cladding on the side is hopefully not the final cladding.

It's not terrible. It's not amazing.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Eh.

Bigger windows and maybe a cornice would have been nice. The Yellow cladding on the side is hopefully not the final cladding.

It's not terrible. It's not amazing.

Cornice would have been nice, but I don't mind the side. It kind of looks like wood? Idk, not the worst and probably just like that due to them not having the air rights to next door.

[Philly Fan]

Much-awaited Calder Gardens breaks ground on the Parkway

[Boku]

Hilco to start building ‘Bellwether District’ on old PES refinery grounds in early 2023

https://www.inquirer.com/business/hilco-pes-refinery-bellwether-district-20221116.html

Hilco Redevelopment Partners plans to start the first phase of construction in early 2023 for what the company has labeled the Bellwether District, which spans 1,300 acres on the site of the former Philadelphia Energy Solutions refinery.

Justin Dunn, an HRP vice president, said during a community meeting Tuesday night that crews will begin preparing and grading land in the first quarter of 2023 and that “vertical” construction would begin in spring.

The property is still undergoing cleanup and monitoring from more than 100 years of petroleum operations that ended in 2019 with a fire and two explosions that forced the shuttering of what was the largest refinery on the East Coast.

HRP plans a new network of roads that would connect to existing city streets with easy access to I-76. It plans bike lanes, and is exploring links to SEPTA service, while opening public access to a part of the Schuylkill that’s been closed for more than a century.

New industrial section
Dunn said HRP’s first buildings will be two warehouses, one 326,000 square feet, and the other 700,000 square feet.

They would become part of the industrial section planned for the Bellwether District. HRP would start construction in 2024 for the second section, a life sciences campus.

In all, it will take a decade or more to build out the entire Bellwether District, company officials said. They anticipate about 19,000 people will eventually work in the district.

Dunn said crews will begin grading and excavating for the warehouses in January.

“These are not typical industrial-style kind of dirty buildings,” Dunn said. “These are very much clean space.”

Dunn expects the warehouses to be occupied by “big retail names, e-commerce, logistics” in a wedge of land between Passyunk Avenue and South 26th and Hartranft streets.

“We would love to have some light manufacturing, which is not smokestack manufacturing … creating a campus that has a class A feeling.”

He said several new roads would be added with bike paths “to allow safe passage of pedestrian and bike access.”

Life sciences campus
George Needs, also a vice president, said crews will begin preparing land for the life sciences campus by mid 2023 with construction to start in early 2024. Access would be off S. 28th Street and Maiden Lane.

The first buildings would range from 150,000 to 180,000 square feet and rise 30 to 40 feet high. They would be designed to manufacture and store pharmaceuticals and medical therapeutics.

HRP officials said the land would be graded to account for flooding, given the Bellwether District’s low-lying position next to the river.

Pollution cleanup
Meanwhile, Julianna Connolly, who oversees environmental remediation for HRP, said cleanup of contamination resulting from the former petroleum operations is continuing. HRP, along with Philadelphia Energy Solutions, is responsible for contamination of any soil or groundwater that occurred after 2012. Sunoco, a prior owner of the refinery, is responsible for contamination before 2012.

Connolly said soil is being sampled before it is capped or moved as needed. She said the company is working on five different areas of the site to bring them up to state standards under what’s known as Pennsylvania Act 2 law, which allows reuse of contaminated properties as long as they meet certain criteria.

For example, crews pumped oil out of the ground in one section, she said, and the area is being monitored. The largest contaminated area spans eight acres and HRP is using a new technology known as oil vapor extraction, which involves converting the petroleum into vapor and collecting it.

“It involves more aggressively trying to remove the petroleum that’s in the subsurface of the ground,” Connolly said.

In other areas, crews are sampling soil where large oil storage tanks had been removed.

“We won’t be surprised if we find additional areas (to clean) as we continue through demolition and earth work,” Connolly said.

I didn't realize there would be a life sciences component to this. Good news.

[philly_account12]

Originally Posted by McBane

Remember, Regional Rail, whether by design or not, is primarily used to shuttle commuters from the suburbs to Center City. Having said that, a stop here would not really benefit the community - the area is better served by buses and the BSL, which run more often and is like half the price. For suburban commuters and SEPTA leadership, few would use the stop and it would just end up lengthening commutes.

Its used that way because Center City is pretty much the only place regional rail goes right now (in addition to the frequency issues that have been mentioned). Adding in-fill stations outside CC but within the city core would go a long way towards changing how RR is used, especially since this station would serve some of the fastest growing neighborhoods over the past decade (Fishtown, NoLibs, Francisville, Brewerytown, etc)

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by McBane

Remember, Regional Rail, whether by design or not, is primarily used to shuttle commuters from the suburbs to Center City. Having said that, a stop here would not really benefit the community - the area is better served by buses and the BSL, which run more often and is like half the price. For suburban commuters and SEPTA leadership, few would use the stop and it would just end up lengthening commutes.

Just because the infrastructure is partially there doesn't make it feasible or a worthy investment.

It's all about making more thorough train coverage and a station at 9th and Poplar or 9th and Girard would absolutely do that. The tracks are already there plus it's elevated so no need for expensive tunnels. The western area of Northern Liberties is blowing up with new units. If you're around 6th and Poplar area, the Girard ave MFL stop is a 20 minute walk and the Spring Garden MFL stop is probably 18 minutes. Plus people aren't exactly dying to take the MFL which we all want to be better...but right now it is the most violent and dirty train line in all of America.

These are just some of the projects in that area:
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/n...gs-fairmount-manors-proposed-replacement
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/west-poplar/will-the-poplar-get-some-more-neighbors-soon
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/n...-buildings-next-to-nolibs-federal-donuts
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/n...oject-well-under-way-under-new-ownership
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/w...rden-swap-parking-lot-mixed-use-building

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by Boku

Hilco to start building ‘Bellwether District’ on old PES refinery grounds in early 2023

https://www.inquirer.com/business/hilco-pes-refinery-bellwether-district-20221116.html



I didn't realize there would be a life sciences component to this. Good news.

Hopefully Septa can hire way more people to help fill the current shortage and future needs. The bus network needs to grow and the current bus revolution does not address this. Happy to see there will be public access hopefully with a good bike network.

The warehouses are going to be great for PhilaPort and possibly the airport. Pharmaceuticals is would be massive especially since the Philly airport has infrastructure to handle pharmaceuticals.

Glad to see there is going to be still some light industry and more life sciences.

Last wish is a river trail to bike/walk along.

[McBane]

Wow lots of disagreement with my take on RR - all I did was point out today's reality. Everything being said is great - and I agree with it - but the solutions/ideas being discussed all seem extremely unrealistic especially when taken together. You all want SEPTA to add stations and stops AND bring pricing down to match bus/subway fares (that's like 66% off!) AND have the trains run more often. How could this possibly be funded (even if it was technically feasible, which McGrath said is not)? Again, I love all of this. I hate that RR is so expensive and the trains run so infrequently - it's why I prefer the bus over the train. As much as I want to see these changes, it seems like a pipe dream. And I'm not sure why pointing that out is so contentious.

[therealdawk]

I noticed that the Christmas Village setup is back which is always cool but it looks like yet another year with that saucer space empty. I thought that thing was supposed to become a restaurant? Has that been scrapped?

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Plus people aren't exactly dying to take the MFL which we all want to be better...but right now it is the most violent and dirty train line in all of America.

Please take a ride on Chicago's Blue, Green, Pink, or Red lines, either of Baltimore's rail lines, or BART and tell me the El is still the worst. Is it bad? Yes, but trying to encourage people to take it less won't make it any better.

When SEPTA has the capacity to run consistent trains on the Main Line, then it may be worthwhile to discuss a Girard Station. Until then it's a moot point. Even as it stands now, which trains stop at the station? Is it two island platforms allowing for all trains to stop or do you only build two outside platforms? Either way, SEPTA would have to use eminent domain to acquire the surrounding property in order to build any such station. I think two outside platforms make more sense given the constraints and the purpose of the station, but now that means you've limited which lines call there. It doesn't make sense for every local train to be on Tracks 1 & 4; it's a 4 track main for a reason.

I think the idea has merit one day but not in the near future. It's not some turnkey easy thing that SEPTA could be doing to improve service. Let's knock those out of the way first.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by allovertown

And to your point that many lines are already running at capacity at rush hour, the first thing that could be done would by to run trains more frequently when it's not rush hour. If you stay after work to grab dinner, once you're past seven or so, you're looking at one hour headways! It's even like this in the middle of the day, waiting an hour between trains is terrible.

I get that there may not be great demand to justify the added expense immediately. But 1hr headways provide people with the type of discouragement that just makes them decide to not even consider rail.

Don't disagree! Several lines could probably be brought to 30 minute 24/7 service right now, but like I said, ripple effects. I think you underestimate the teetering house of cards that is Regional Rail's capacity; it might be able to handle 6 tph during bursts during rush hour, but to keep that going all day is a different matter entirely.

Think about it as if you're standing at Temple University Station on a Saturday. Right now, you're probably seeing at most 5-6 tph in both directions, spread across 12 (really 6) lines (let's say, for the sake of argument, that each line has a paring and trains from one only run onto the other and vice/versa. Cynwyd is excepted since it doesn't call Temple). Now imagine if each of those lines runs 2 tph, 30 minute headways. You're already talking about going from 6 trains to 12 in each direction. Those 5 minutes between trains get a lot longer when a switch fails, or when your Fox Chase train on 2 along with an Airport train on 3 and a Bryn Mawr local on 4 is held at Wayne for a Chestnut Hill East train to cross the main, etc. It's a tricky problem to solve and one that won't come easy.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by therealdawk

I noticed that the Christmas Village setup is back which is always cool but it looks like yet another year with that saucer space empty. I thought that thing was supposed to become a restaurant? Has that been scrapped?

The Christmas Village opens this weekend, and the tree is being setup too.

Years ago the saucer was supposed to be run by Saffron Turnery Hospitality (the couple behind favorites like Bud & Marilyn, Little Nonna's, Barbuzzo, etc.). They backed out a while ago, mainly to focus on their current venues.

I have no idea what (if anything) is planned for the saucer. Cool space, but seems logistically challenging to open a restaurant.