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  #13701  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2022, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Geno might be legit better than Russ, but it's also a better system and coaches, as well as each QB's familiarity with his system.

As for Link construction, a big QC fix is delaying things in one area, bad soils require redesign in another, and everything has pushed back due to Covid and supply issues. It's not earth-shattering but some openings will be back a year-plus.

Wait- you mean a system and coaches that isn't a revolving carousel of personnel aids in player performance? God forbid.
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  #13702  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 12:53 AM
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A few updates:
- There are three dirt movers on Brighton Blvd where Steelhouse is to be built. It's hard to tell if they are getting ready to start that project or not because right next to it there's a bunch of road/sewer work happening?

- Found updated renderings of Drivetrain: https://hreventures.com/project/4003-walnut-street/

- AMLI golden triangle at 8th and Broadway was in full demolition mode.

- Renderings of the Edens project on Larimer that will be mostly replacing Volunteers of America - https://www.trybaarchitects.com/portfolio/five-points-larimer-and-lawrence

- Small infill project in Cap Hill @951 Logan - https://thestudioarchitecture.com/projects/951-logan/

Last edited by UrbanT; Nov 11, 2022 at 1:33 AM.
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  #13703  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 5:12 AM
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Good Stuff - Nice Sleuthing
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanT View Post
A few updates:
- There are three dirt movers on Brighton Blvd where Steelhouse is to be built. It's hard to tell if they are getting ready to start that project or not because right next to it there's a bunch of road/sewer work happening?

- Found updated renderings of Drivetrain: https://hreventures.com/project/4003-walnut-street/

- AMLI golden triangle at 8th and Broadway was in full demolition mode.

- Renderings of the Edens project on Larimer that will be mostly replacing Volunteers of America - https://www.trybaarchitects.com/portfolio/five-points-larimer-and-lawrence

- Small infill project in Cap Hill @951 Logan - https://thestudioarchitecture.com/projects/951-logan/
I wasn't at all familiar with Halpern (which means nothing) but they have offices in NYC and Boulder, obviously NY-based.

Edens intentions are a favorite of mine; it does say the renderings are conceptional ideas but I look forward to watching these guys move forward.
--------------------------

Headlines and opinions are a dime a dozen but I thought this one relevant and encouraging.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/goldman-...pening-in-capital-markets-next-year.html
Quote:
Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon said Thursday that he expects capital markets to recover in the upcoming months.

“I think what we’re going through at the moment is a reset of valuation expectations,” he said in an interview with CNBC’s Jim Cramer. “In the coming months, we’ll see a little bit of a reopening in the capital markets when people get used to this valuation adjustment.”
Actually, this opinion is not specific to real estate but a projection of a better capital markets in general for next year which likely includes real estate.
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  #13704  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Wait- you mean a system and coaches that isn't a revolving carousel of personnel aids in player performance? God forbid.
Don't forget hiring a head coach who's main qualification was that he could relate/coach and hopefully entice the signing of a science denying imbecile (no matter how good he may have once been on the field). Shocking that being able to relate to a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 may actually be a sign that you're a bit dim yourself. Everyone complaining about who we got from Seattle should be thankful we only got HALF of the original stupid plan fulfilled.

Still, if I was in charge there now I would institute a new rule of being required to sit down for lunch with Joe Sakic first for his advice before even thinking about any trade from now on. If he's not too busy planning on how he'll fleece the next NHL team on his list.
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Last edited by Brainpathology; Nov 11, 2022 at 12:50 PM.
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  #13705  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 12:32 PM
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Congrats from Seattle, which badly needs a similar measure, particularly outside the mid-century city limits where many streets were built with rural standards. Heck, I might even give a first rounder back in a trade.
You could have a near perfect city if you combined the strengths of Seattle with those of Denver. I went to interview in the area back in August and I felt a complete lack of homesickness there that was odd since I'd never been there for longer than a day before. The people are proud of their cities all up and down the sound and seem genuinely willing if not eager to pay for shared projects like cities in functioning societies do. Most people I met speak about how fortunate they are to be living in the setting they find themselves in too - I must have asked 20 people "how do you like living here" in Sea, Tac, and Ruston and got variations of love it with follow ups like above. That and the fact that the entire area seems to have been dropped right in the middle of a forest and I see what I grew up in in Rye combined with the city I spent my early adult years in Denver.

I am certain, lest anyone point out how many problems these places have, that when you live there you gripe about all the things that could be done better if YOU were in charge as I'm certain I will too when I live there. Just like people who love where they live ought to do.

Aside from the - I think - good natured ribbing of anyone who says Tacoma and Seattle are part of the same metropolis which I won't make the mistake of doing ever again.

You all are arguing about how to pay for sidewalks, voters in blue Orlando can't even be bothered to approve a sales tax for transportation here. Although Orlando has been making pretty great strides in cultural facilities here - mostly by soaking tourists in hotel rooms.

I remember when I was just starting residency here and an old COS rep named Tancredo called Miami a third world country (he was using it as a bigoted attack on immigration at the time) but..... no one got that it could have been a compliment and something for the state to aspire to.
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  #13706  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 7:15 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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EVERY city has a host of issues, and they tend to be pretty similar. That's one reason I like watching Denver and other cities for their problems, successes, solutions, etc.

Tacoma is semi-connected to Seattle. It's like if Colorado Springs was 20 miles closer. It's half its own place but also a bedroom area as its white-collar workforce often works in Seattle or Bellevue. Seaports, transit, land use planning, etc., include localized agencies but also regional ones. I attended a ULI event yesterday where speakers from the local chambers of commerce all made a point that we're the same metro and it's all about the whole.

Yes we're willing to pay for things here. Two middle-class suburban school districts just voted over 60% yes for $1.2b in capital projects bonds on Tuesday, which isn't unusual. Denver area voters seem to do similar things though.
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  #13707  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 9:48 PM
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I'd assume that moving from the right coast to the left coast is reason enough to celebrate.

The problem with Denver is they've forgotten out to procreate as they're closing schools instead of building them.
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  #13708  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
I attended a ULI event yesterday where speakers from the local chambers of commerce all made a point that we're the same metro and it's all about the whole.
That sounds like liberal wishful thinking. Partly, I'd guess, Seattle area has more geographic limitations than Denver.

Lakewood voted for growth limitations because it didn't want to be like Denver. Some suggested Lakewood would become more unaffordable as a result but my guess is that hasn't happened.

When the pandemic re-awakened the animal spirits of wanting space and/or ownership is when the old Axiom of "drive till you qualify" took root again and young people people have the energy.
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  #13709  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
That sounds like liberal wishful thinking. Partly, I'd guess, Seattle area has more geographic limitations than Denver.

Lakewood voted for growth limitations because it didn't want to be like Denver. Some suggested Lakewood would become more unaffordable as a result but my guess is that hasn't happened.

When the pandemic re-awakened the animal spirits of wanting space and/or ownership is when the old Axiom of "drive till you qualify" took root again and young people people have the energy.
Anecdotally, I do know of a person who voted for the growth limit, because corporate developers are evil, and then had to leave Lakewood due to rising housing costs. They now reside in a rental in Denver with roommates where their meager teacher's pension gets stretched more and more every year.

I love karma.
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Last edited by wong21fr; Nov 11, 2022 at 11:29 PM.
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  #13710  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 11:26 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Based on a vaguely-realistic map of Lakewood I drew in CoStar, I get 4.6% apartment rent growth in 12 months vs. 3.5% for the metro.

But I wouldn't expect it to change much yet. Without knowing the details, it's only three years post-passage and between the lag before policy was in place, grandfathered projects, and lease-up periods we might only now be in the range where projects could have come on line but aren't.

PS, life is easier when cities are required to accept growth.
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  #13711  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 4:43 PM
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Ebb and Flow

Last night I picked up a couple from Cleveland and I brought up the Great Millennial migration to city centers after the Financial Crisis. Turns out their daughter moved to Denver for a period of time, lived in the city center. He mentioned how at one point they thought about renting an apartment in downtown Cleveland to be a part of the scene when the urge hit.

Then he brought up the Great Reversal following the Pandemic as people chased space in the suburbs.

By chance I also picked up a couple from Cincinnati last night and last weekend some gals from Columbus so I've got Ohio covered.
----------------------------

Affordability

So this morning I did a (very) quick check and found what I knew I would. The income per capita is significantly higher in Seattle than Denver and Denver's income per capita is significantly higher than Phoenix. That in a nutshell defines your affordability challenges.

You can write a fancy formula on a chalkboard or get off into the weeds about any number of things but the local economy is your primary driver.

And we're not going back to the 'good old days' when developer-builders created sprawl and periods of waaaay too much housing. Perhaps ongoing Stagflation will create adjustments as even the Tech Stars are cutting payroll. It's likely that city centers will continue to depend on the next group of young people while as people age/mature the desire for space will prevail. Nicer units will continue to appeal to those who are older and love the city center.

I'm always happy to add that Denver has done a credible job of adding 'designated' affordable housing to help with Seniors, with Veterans and even those with disabilities. But if Denver remains the attractive place it is then market rate affordability will continue to be a challenge. Same for Seattle - in spades.
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  #13712  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
And we're not going back to the 'good old days' when developer-builders created sprawl and periods of waaaay too much housing. Perhaps ongoing Stagflation will create adjustments as even the Tech Stars are cutting payroll. It's likely that city centers will continue to depend on the next group of young people while as people age/mature the desire for space will prevail. Nicer units will continue to appeal to those who are older and love the city center.

I'm always happy to add that Denver has done a credible job of adding 'designated' affordable housing to help with Seniors, with Veterans and even those with disabilities. But if Denver remains the attractive place it is then market rate affordability will continue to be a challenge. Same for Seattle - in spades.
For all the talk of the end of the desirability of central Denver, I am sure not seeing it in the real world affordability of housing around me. There's a realtor who sends a quarterly summary of all the sales in the immediate vicinity of our house every quarter, with stats, square footage, asking price, sales price. It's great reading. And it tells me my central Denver house would still sell for 40% more than I paid for it in January 2020 (by dumb luck, a mere two months before the pandemic). And that's with the death of downtown, the end of commutes, homeless camps in our front yards, rampant crime foretelling the end of organized civilization, and the failure of democratic governance, apparently all weighing down my 'hood. The only way I can make sense of it is that people, even middle-aged people, must still like trees, brick, and sidewalks, and expect to still want those things post-apocalypse. And want those things as much as a patch of grass, fresh carpet, and easy maintenance.

Edit: And look, it's not like I am not ever-on-the-lookout for a new white flight, a second urban exodus. I don't plan to be left behind in the burning theater; I'm probably going to be at the front of the horde running for the exits. I'm just not seeing it. At least not to the suburbs. Is there a new interest in mountain homes for those who have forever sworn off the office? Sure. But the people I see moving to Lone Tree today were always moving to Lone Tree. Maybe the space trade-offs that have always existed between urban/suburban are weighed slightly differently in a world where people need a home office. But at the end of the day, people who were already choosing a bungalow over a McMansion are not suddenly needing a Trump-esque home office setup with cherry desk and a 9' bookcase. Folks make it work just fine (for me, it's the breakfast nook turned office by day). I actually think we all have a lot of data on this now, after two years of seeing everybody's Zoom background and knowing exactly how people have set up their home workspaces. Lots of people have said, "I finished my attic [or my garage]." Also lots of "I moved from a 700sf apartment to an 1,100sf apartment because my boy/girlfriend talks too damn loud." Not once has somebody said, "hey, check out my new setup, so glad I have a separate den now in Castle Rock."

I also think the sudden wave of comfort with neighborhood after neighborhood being rezoned en masse for ADUs (which if you'll recall, we all though was impossible four years ago) is not just tied to affordability; it's also tied to folks valuing flexibility in their home setups more than they did pre-pandemic. And it's working marvelously, if you ask me.

Last edited by bunt_q; Nov 12, 2022 at 6:22 PM.
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  #13713  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 6:19 PM
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No disagreement from me
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
And that's with the death of downtown, the end of commutes, homeless camps in our front yards, rampant crime foretelling the end of organized civilization, and the failure of democratic governance, apparently all weighing down my 'hood. The only way I can make sense of it is that people, even middle-aged people, must still like trees, brick, and sidewalks, and expect to still want those things post-apocalypse. And want those things as much as a patch of grass, fresh carpet, and easy maintenance.
My focus was more on living in matchboxes in downtown. Downtown's surrounding neighborhoods should remain desirable for the simple reason there's a limited supply of nice 'hoods to live in. So for those who want to move on there's plenty of people happy to take their place.
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  #13714  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 6:35 PM
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No disagreement from me


My focus was more on living in matchboxes in downtown. Downtown's surrounding neighborhoods should remain desirable for the simple reason there's a limited supply of nice 'hoods to live in. So for those who want to move on there's plenty of people happy to take their place.
But that's different trade-offs - matchbox apartments vs crappy suburban apartments (which aren't much better).

If you exclude people who were moving from urban apartments to a house they can afford eventually anyways, I am not seeing a material acceleration. I am not seeing much of any acceleration that isn't just driven by demographics. Which I don't think has as much to do with "young people prefer the City" as "the City has better apartments, and when I am 24 and throwing my money at rent, I might as well live in a better apartment with 🞵🞵🞵🞵 to do around me." Maybe those are the same thing, but you characterize it as some massive change in preferences with age, which I think is different.

We don't really have condo options, so that's barely a factor. We don't even really have much in terms of urban townhome/rowhouse/attached options. Hence the term "missing middle."

If we had those things at price points comparable to the only affordable non-rental housing, would more people leaving their "matchboxes" make some of the same space/price tradeoffs in their 30s that they made in the 20s? Absolutely. But let's not confuse an absence of options (which is a true pass/fail) with preferences. (And before you say the market builds what people prefer - we all know that is not the case. The market builds what it is allowed to build, in the most profitable way allowable. But there is a LOT that is just not on the table to developers - and thus, buyers - for regulatory reasons.)
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  #13715  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 10:54 PM
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Let me try again

As young people go through their 20's, many will fall in love, maybe a few times, lol. As a couple, many will start thinking of what they want in life, their future. It's a normal maturation process that's gone on since Hector was pup. It's also true that people are marrying later and later but the process still goes on.

The Pandemic was a verified time for people deciding to buy a home; happened all over the country. In Denver many may have been able to buy in Highlands/Sloans area or West Wash Park or Curtis Park, Mayfair etc but for many others if they were going to buy it meant driving until they qualify. They might have picked a missing middle unit (like townhomes) which are more readily available in the burbs.

I have no intent to paint one area as undesirable and others as desirable. I love my 'poor' Uber riders; they're wonderful people and where they live is their home. Everybody has to decide for themselves what they can afford and what they want.

There was no mass exodus as people have leases to fulfill and generally people don't just pack up and move. Those with children may have moved into a crummy apartment in the suburbs but chances are it has a playground and green space for kids to run and jump.

AFAIK, the central city is still a vibrant fun place but it's not like the suburbs don't have parks and trails and open space and there's isn't anything to do.

Homelessness and crime are an overhanging risk which seems more prevalent in the city center in Denver although it certainly also exists in the suburbs. But I suspect, partly, if people believe the city wants to manage and improve things then that will go a long way. I read recently of several steps the city will be taking.
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  #13716  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 11:17 PM
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Looks like evolve towers will be built from the top down, very cool! I thought this project was dead so great to see. Article says it will hopefully break ground q2/q3 next year.

https://www.enr.com/articles/55188-top-d...eer-tge-plans-first-us-project-in-denver
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  #13717  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2022, 11:08 AM
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Thanks for finding this




Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanT View Post
Looks like evolve towers will be built from the top down, very cool! I thought this project was dead so great to see. Article says it will hopefully break ground q2/q3 next year.

https://www.enr.com/articles/55188-top-d...eer-tge-plans-first-us-project-in-denver
It's been years since I sourced anything from ENR but this is quite the article.

How freaky looking is this?


Photo courtesy of Barton Malow

https://www.enr.com/articles/55187-with-...top-down-project-in-the-us-since-the-70s
Quote:
Top-down construction—assembling the floor of a building on the ground and lifting it into place—has long presented a possible alternative to the labor-intensive process of constructing steel frames, floors, walls and all components at height. But what happens when that process is combined with a prefabrication strategy that aims to take manufacturing best practices and apply them to construction?

That question is being answered with Exchange, a 207-ft-tall condo and apartment tower in Detroit’s Greektown neighborhood.
With respect to Denver's Evolve Towers

https://www.enr.com/articles/55188-top-d...eer-tge-plans-first-us-project-in-denver
Quote:
“We came in about 25% less expensive than a high-rise, cast-in-place, flat-plate concrete project,” Thornton says of the two-tower project in Denver.

“We’ve got our vertical supply chain involved with the project,” Esparza says. “The job’s been three years in the making, but right now we’re in the Site Development Plan (SDP) amendment phase together with an early design development concurrent path. We hope to be breaking ground in Q2/Q3 of 2023, depending on permit issuance.”

IMEG Corp. is on board as the structural engineer, Oz Architects and Sanzpont Spain are the design firms. TGE Top Down is the design-build contractor.

Rendering courtesy of TGE Top Down

The only fuzzy piece - at least not mentioned in the article - concerns funding but that should be doable given the cost savings.
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  #13718  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2022, 3:58 PM
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For all the talk of the end of the desirability of central Denver, I am sure not seeing it in the real world affordability of housing around me...
There's a big difference between center cities, ie downtown, and center city neighborhoods. Since places were allowed to open after covid shutdowns, close-in neighborhoods have been busy with people and generally on the up, some even thriving. Downtowns, that is generally not the case far and wide across the country. Lease rates falling, meaningful vacancies appearing in office and retail, businesses closing early or maintain limited hours (if they can survive at all) with more of all of that to come.
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  #13719  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2022, 4:53 PM
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...If you exclude people who were moving from urban apartments to a house they can afford eventually anyways, I am not seeing a material acceleration. I am not seeing much of any acceleration that isn't just driven by demographics...
I know quite a few die hard urbanists who love City-living to their absolute core. All but one of them left City center or downtown adjacent neighborhoods during the first year of covid, not the second. Maybe 2/3 have kid(s), the others are SINKS and DINKS. Only a couple of them rented, the others owned condos, townhomes and a few with SFH.

Ancillary info, but it sure seems to me their primary reason for moving was because of the rona and it's effects on the center city. The closest places they moved were northfield, arvada, and lakewood (nowhere near colfax). Most are in true burbs extending past those 1960/70's burbs.
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  #13720  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2022, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
I know quite a few die hard urbanists who love City-living to their absolute core. All but one of them left City center or downtown adjacent neighborhoods during the first year of covid, not the second. Maybe 2/3 have kid(s), the others are SINKS and DINKS. Only a couple of them rented, the others owned condos, townhomes and a few with SFH.

Ancillary info, but it sure seems to me their primary reason for moving was because of the rona and it's effects on the center city. The closest places they moved were northfield, arvada, and lakewood (nowhere near colfax). Most are in true burbs extending past those 1960/70's burbs.
That's the first year. The city center was...... rough, to put it mildly.

I don't disagree with you that downtown is going to face some significant headwinds over the next as companies continue to evaluate what exactly is going to constitute their office needs as hybrid work schedules/flexibility becomes the norm. In addition, you've got the Convention Center expansion and 16th Street Mall renovation that are serving to disrupt the regular, or return to regular, flow downtown. Finally, there's going to be the ongoing struggle to reign in crime and homelessness downtown through increased enforcement and the lag of building additional transitional housing.

I do think that the city should be doing a lot more to encourage the conversion of Class B and C office space to residential anywhere possible. Calgary's Development Incentive Program is the first thing that comes to mind:

https://www.calgary.ca/development/downtown-incentive.html?redirect=/downtownincentives

Getting 10-20K new residents in the CBD over the next decade would be the kind of shift that can help to insulate the area from future real estate downturns.
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