Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[begratto]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Higgs has also recently mused about the elimination of the office of the provincial official languages commissioner.

It appears he has decided to follow Quebec’s lead on these issues (no English immersion in Quebec etc).

Another misconception about Quebec…

Two of my kids did two years of English immersion at school, in grade 5 and 6, in Quebec. They’re now fully bilingual. Well, trilingual, actually: they also learned Spanish in secondary school, and speak it quite well, to the point that we watch series in Spanish on Netflix.

Seems to me that our system works much better at producing bilingual graduates…

[MonctonRad]

I'm surprised to hear that there is English immersion in some schools in Quebec.

How widespread is the program? Is it easy to get into? Are there restrictions as to who can apply? How many grades does it cover?

There is no such thing as English immersion in NB's French language school system.

To be honest, Higg's plan is not so much anti French as it is addressing and acknowledging several problems with the current system:

1) - French immersion is not universally available in NB. While there is near complete accessibility in northern and eastern NB. Many anglophone schools in (especially rural) southern and western NB have no access to French immersion. This is felt discriminatory in a province where bilingualism is so important to future employment prospects, especially in the civil service.
2) - The French language proficiency of most people in immersion is pretty poor - conversational at best. This is because of lack of motivation on the part of many students, and the fact that many students drop out of immersion in high school as they want to do their math and science courses in English before attending (English) universities throughout the region. Immersion therefore is not achieving its goals.
3) - Many parents do not put their children in French immersion necessarily to make them bilingual, but because of the perceived "streaming" that it creates. They feel that elite students are streamed into French immersion, leaving the core program for ESL students, cripples, half wits and children with behavioural problems. This has become a self fulfilling prophesy as parents panic and divert their children to immersion for the wrong reasons.

Higgs wants to end the problems with streaming, and, he wants to make French education in the anglophone system more democratic and universally available by ending the immersion program. Instead, he intends to enhance French language eduction across the board to create conversational fluency amongst all graduates.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is no such thing as English immersion in NB's French language school system.

To be fair, as soon as you step outside the school, you're "English Immersed".

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nashe

To be fair, as soon as you step outside the school, you're "English Immersed".

Maybe not on la peninsule.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm surprised to hear that there is English immersion in some schools in Quebec.

How widespread is the program? Is it easy to get into? Are there restrictions as to who can apply? How many grades does it cover?

There is no such thing as English immersion in NB's French language school system.

To be honest, Higg's plan is not so much anti French as it is addressing and acknowledging several problems with the current system:

1) - French immersion is not universally available in NB. While there is near complete accessibility in northern and eastern NB. Many anglophone schools in (especially rural) southern and western NB have no access to French immersion. This is felt discriminatory in a province where bilingualism is so important to future employment prospects, especially in the civil service.
2) - The French language proficiency of most people in immersion is pretty poor - conversational at best. This is because of lack of motivation on the part of many students, and the fact that many students drop out of immersion in high school as they want to do their math and science courses in English before attending (English) universities throughout the region. Immersion therefore is not achieving its goals.
3) - Many parents do not put their children in French immersion necessarily to make them bilingual, but because of the perceived "streaming" that it creates. They feel that elite students are streamed into French immersion, leaving the core program for ESL students, cripples, half wits and children with behavioural problems. This has become a self fulfilling prophesy as parents panic and divert their children to immersion for the wrong reasons.

Higgs wants to end the problems with streaming, and, he wants to make French education in the anglophone system more democratic and universally available by ending the immersion program. Instead, he intends to enhance French language eduction across the board to create conversational fluency amongst all graduates.

One remains skeptical as to the likelihood that eliminating immersion will lead to more anglophone students in New Brunswick being conversant in French.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One remains skeptical as to the likelihood that eliminating immersion will lead to more anglophone students in New Brunswick being conversant in French.

I could be wrong, but I think in Ontario, the immersion program has lost its "elite" image as new Canadians and the parents of special needs children have increasingly plugged into the programme. The issue in Ontario seems to be finding enough qualified instructors.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The issue in Ontario seems to be finding enough qualified instructors.

This is indeed an issue in NB too, hence the difficulty in finding qualified instructors in heavily anglophone portions of the province.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One remains skeptical as to the likelihood that eliminating immersion will lead to more anglophone students in New Brunswick being conversant in French.

It's just such an odd thing for New Brunswick to do.

How much can immersion really cost the provincial government?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It's just such an odd thing for New Brunswick to do.

How much can immersion really cost the provincial government?

I think it's more populist playing to a certain base than it is anything financial or practical.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's more populist playing to a certain base than it is anything financial or practical.

Higgs is certainly the most populist and right wing of the Atlantic Canadian Conservative Premiers.

And, he has a large constituency in southern and western NB (that part of the province most skeptical of bilingualism).

As has been seen with the current administration, it is possible for the Progressive Conservatives to form a majority government in NB with little to no Acadian support. The conservative anglophones here in southeastern NB however are somewhat more accommodating to the French fact, and if he loses support here, this could imperil his chances in the next election.

The new Liberal leader (Susan Holt) seems like a reasonable person. Higgs currently seems a little reckless, and should be careful. He however seems to be in a rush right now to remake the province. I think this is partially because his agenda was delayed by COVID, and, I think he may be thinking of retiring before the next election. He is over 70 I believe.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

but one doesn't have to venture far from Ottawa into Quebec to find tons of francophones who aren't so good in English.

Which is good in a way. The day all Francophones from Québec are good at English, than you know it's the beginning of the end for the French language in North America (except SPM, which will be the last holdout).

Talking of the French language, I was at Les Halles tonight (the big underground shopping mall in the heart of Paris), I saw the newly opened cafés and restaurants area of the mall (which had been U/C for the past 2 years), well you would never believe it: it's 100% English (or Mexican-English) names! Not a single French commercial name. As if the French language, in the mind of Parisians, had become a symbol of backwardness or something.

Later, walking on the Left Bank in the luxurious and formerly intellectual area of St Germain des Prés (home of Sartre, etc), I saw a sign on a Haussmannian building currently being renovated: "Flagship à louer".

This is so ridiculous, I don't know where this madness will end. I was wondering why they didn't go the extra mile and simply wrote "Flagship to rent"...

PS: Now even the Francophone Africans are mimicking the French and peppering their French with tons of English words. Tonight on France24 there was a report about "la fashionweek" in Southern Tunisia, and you had some Tunisian designers saying: "Ca a un côté streetwear qu'on aime beaucoup, on trouve ça très fun. C'est très populaire dans le milieu underground en Tunisie, et c'est peu connu à l'étranger, on voudrait faire plus connaître ce côté de la Tunisie etc".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by acottawa

"Stop" is a French word.

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/stop

ARRÊT is a weird Quebecism.

Stop is an English word. It was adopted in French about 200 years ago, like many English words adopted at the time because the French aristocracy and bourgeoisie were very anglophile (words like "jury", "comité" (from English "committee"), "ticket", "jockey", etc).

The French word was "halte". This is what French sentries used: "Halte !", or "Halte là !" I don't know why Québec used "arrêt" instead of "halte", which would have been more proper. "Arrêt" is a stopover, literally, but it didn't carry the idea of a sudden stop, which was the word "halte" in French.

[kwoldtimer]

edit

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Stop is an English word. It was adopted in French about 200 years ago, like many English words adopted at the time because the French aristocracy and bourgeoisie were very anglophile (words like "jury", "comité" (from English "committee"), "ticket", "jockey", etc).

The French word was "halte". This is what French sentries used: "Halte !", or "Halte là !" I don't know why Québec used "arrêt" instead of "halte", which would have been more proper. "Arrêt" is a stopover, literally, but it didn't carry the idea of a sudden stop, which was the word "halte" in French.

“S’arrêter (pour ensuite repartir)” est la façon la plus précise de décrire ce qui est demandé par le panneau, non? “Faire une halte” aurait une connotation très différente.

[Loco101]

[harls]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I always wondered why they put a stupid pine tree on that sign.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by harls

I always wondered why they put a stupid pine tree on that sign.

It’s probably because north shore is mostly Canadian Shield, where one expects to see pines.

=====

I just learned about Blaine Higgs eliminating French immersion too.
IMO it’s horrible optic in a bilingual province, to say the least.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I just learned about Blaine Higgs eliminating French immersion too. IMO it’s horrible optic in a bilingual province, to say the least.

If NB were a muppet:

• Video Link
• Video Link

[Binour]

Harls, have a look on these picnic area road signs collection. Quebec is far from alone to have a tree or a «pine» on its signs.

https://www.shutterstock.com/search/picnic-area-traffic-sign

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by harls

I always wondered why they put a stupid pine tree on that sign.

Presumably to indicate/emphasize that this is an outdoor eating area and perhaps not suitable for inclement weather.