Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Don't license and registration fees also pay for the roads?

I think the fees you pay to ICBC for Driver's licences and vehicle registration cover the cost of operating the licencing and registrations systems. There's no 'pot of money' to go to pay for roads.

Almost all the costs of maintaining and improving roads come from property taxes. Municipalities get a modest transfer from TransLink if they have part of the Major Road Network to look after, and they get an amount from a fund the federal government pay from the federal gas taxes they collect. ICBC contribute to some road improvements (like left turn bays) where it would reduce accidents.

Major capital investment projects like the Sea to Sky Highway, or the replacement of the Lion's Gate Bridge, or widening Highway 1 are funded by the Province, but they use general taxation to pay for it. All the PST, income tax, and the Provincial Fuel Tax (which is only 1.75c/litre) go into General Revenue, and then the Provincial Budget determines what money goes to what projects. There's no guarantee of any of it being spent on roads or bridges. (There are also taxes on gas for transit, and there's the carbon tax which is repaid to taxpayers directly and used to invest in carbon-reducing initiatives, but it won't fund roads).

The Province spends very little on maintenance: the current 3-year budget includes $30 million to keep provincial highways and roads in good repair and in safe conditions for the traveling public — including road and bridge maintenance, electrical maintenance on highways and pavement markings.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'll see your five and raise you eleven: Dubai, Paris, London, Manchester, Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, Denver, Montreal, Auckland, Brisbane. The other half of the planet, including San Fran, Singapore, Hong Kong and Sydney, uses zoneless per-distance fares (like taxi metres), which is what I was talking about and what TransLink is considering. It's Toronto, Calgary and their flat fares which are the weirdos.

I asked for fare zones, not distance fares.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And since riders prefer convenient over cheap, it'd be better to increase convenience instead, which if done right, raises revenue that can be spent on more convenience.

Free pandemic transit was only made possible by large government subsidies and reduced service, both of which were intended to be temporary, just like the CERB and CESB. Outside of a recession, it's something you only do when you have no hope of expanding the network, don't care how much it costs, and just want to fill empty buses and trains; we have the opposite problem.

So, when will all bus routes be 5 minutes or better?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'll see your five and raise you eleven: Dubai, Paris, London, Manchester, Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, Denver, Montreal, Auckland, Brisbane. The other half of the planet, including San Fran, Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tokyo, Osaka and Sydney, uses zoneless per-distance fares (like taxi metres), which is what I was talking about and what TransLink is considering. It's Toronto, Calgary and their flat fares which are the weirdos.

and this just in from the UK House of Lords: Public transport fare zones should be considered for towns and cities across England to boost passenger numbers, according to peers.

A new report from the House of Lords Built Environment Committee stated that such a measure would “increase the attractiveness of public transport to passengers”.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I asked for fare zones, not distance fares.

So, when will all bus routes be 5 minutes or better?

Read it again - I provided examples of both.

Since we're dealing in hyperboles, when will they all be free of charge?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One thing that could be done is to have the fare zone only apply if you use any higher order transit. However, that would only clog buses.

This is literally how the system currently works.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

This is literally how the system currently works.

... and from what I recall, the reason was because tapping off the bus was unreliable through the bus wifi/radio (whatever signal is used) and maybe created problems with subsequent tapping in at SkyTrain faregates upon transfer.
TransLink had to forego a whole lot of bus passenger data.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by officedweller

... and from what I recall, the reason was because tapping off the bus was unreliable through the bus wifi/radio (whatever signal is used) and maybe created problems with subsequent tapping in at SkyTrain faregates upon transfer.
TransLink had to forego a whole lot of bus passenger data.

My impression was the tap out was too slow and delaying busses when multiple people were getting off at once. A bus can start going before everyone has tapped in, but it can't start going before everyone has tapped off.

[Migrant_Coconut]

IIRC it was something to do with Cubic's shoddy programming. Tapping out doesn't seem to cause longer dwell times in other card-based systems (and they're definitely faster than the old Faresavers and cash slots).

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most do not do the math to figure out what is cheaper. They look more at what is more convenient.

Why, if people prefer the more convenient option, would you prioritize reducing the cost instead of increasing convenience? Frequency, reliability, network coverage, etc. can all be improved by charging an affordable fare. The current monthly pass is easily paid off if someone commutes to work every day using transit. A day pass is easily paid off if someone is a tourist in the city for a day. And a cash fare is easily paid off when you consider the price of gas and pricing.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One thing that could be done is to have the fare zone only apply if you use any higher order transit. However, that would only clog buses.

Have you ever ridden a bus in Vancouver or read Translink's Pricing and Fare Zones page?

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i dont know how much i believe this... they have done some changes recently, removed the yard tracks by Cambie/Manitoba St. though they reconfigured 2 tracks through there, they did not remove the through tracks... it also looked like they've done work on the ballast as well and stuff. so i dont know...

only time will tell.

Looks like you are correct. They have done quite a bit of work over the summer. There are zero customers on the line but they are keeping the line up to meet Railway Safety Management System Regulation standards.

Really hoping the city coordinators a purchase of the line. Would be nice to have a connection from Marine Dr station to the River District/New Westminster..

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Have you ever ridden a bus in Vancouver or read Translink's Pricing and Fare Zones page?

I tend just to buy the 3 zone pass for the day and not worry about it.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

IIRC it was something to do with Cubic's shoddy programming. Tapping out doesn't seem to cause longer dwell times in other card-based systems (and they're definitely faster than the old Faresavers and cash slots).

Sydney's Opal system uses Cubic and they can tap out on busses. Strange how we couldn't.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

My impression was the tap out was too slow and delaying busses when multiple people were getting off at once. A bus can start going before everyone has tapped in, but it can't start going before everyone has tapped off.

I wonder if the acknowledgement of tap out relies on a reply signal from the system, so a weak signal or loss of radio signal would impede that.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Sydney's Opal system uses Cubic and they can tap out on busses. Strange how we couldn't.

I'm not sure how hilly Sydney is, but I think the problem was Metro Vancouver's geography and the need to install more transmitter towers for full coverage across hollows and dead zones.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I wonder if the acknowledgement of tap out relies on a reply signal from the system, so a weak signal or loss of radio signal would impede that.

If that were the case (I doubt it is), that's unacceptable. If the box can't communicate out, it should be able to store the acknowledgements until it can.

I'm not sure how hilly Sydney is, but I think the problem was Metro Vancouver's geography and the need to install more transmitter towers for full coverage across hollows and dead zones.

Sydney is arguably hillier than Vancouver (City of), especially the North Shore (Just like ours!).

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I'm not sure how hilly Sydney is, but I think the problem was Metro Vancouver's geography and the need to install more transmitter towers for full coverage across hollows and dead zones.

With the advent of 5G that should not be much of a problem

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by chowhou

If that were the case (I doubt it is), that's unacceptable. If the box can't communicate out, it should be able to store the acknowledgements until it can.

The problem is that the Compass Card is a Stored Value card, which means the value is stored in the card itself rather than in Translink's servers. If the box can't communicate then it can't deduct the correct amount from the card. Having all bus terminal devices deduct a fixed amount from the card for a given time period eliminates the requirement for communication with the servers.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The problem is that the Compass Card is a Stored Value card, which means the value is stored in the card itself rather than in Translink's servers. If the box can't communicate then it can't deduct the correct amount from the card. Having all bus terminal devices deduct a fixed amount from the card for a given time period eliminates the requirement for communication with the servers.

The Compass card readers absolutely send data to a server at some point, how else do you check your Compass card stored value online? These acknowledgements should be able to be buffered.

As for the stored value deduction, again it seems like the boxes are just too slow for some reason. Bus fares are a flat amount, it doesn't take any outside communication to determine a constant value.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

The Compass card readers absolutely send data to a server at some point, how else do you check your Compass card stored value online? These acknowledgements should be able to be buffered.

As for the stored value deduction, again it seems like the boxes are just too slow for some reason. Bus fares are a flat amount, it doesn't take any outside communication to determine a constant value.

The card reader does send data to a server to update your online account details, and it deducts the payment instantly from your card, and you get a tone and light to indicate it's been successful, (or not). And if the signal isn't able to reach the server, the information is buffered and sent later.

But when bus fares weren't a flat rate, but based on the same zones we have on the SkyTrain, then the reader you tapped to get off had to have a signal so that it could tell where you boarded, to deduct the correct amount. If it couldn't get an instant signal, it caused a delay on getting the people off the bus, and so slowed unloading, and therefore loading as well. (People have to leave the bus before the people coming on can board). It couldn't deduct the fare as you boarded because it didn't know where you were going, so it didn't know how much to deduct from the card.

That was why Translink switched to a one zone fare, which meant the single tap getting on was all that was needed.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The card reader does send data to a server to update your online account details, and it deducts the payment instantly from your card, and you get a tone and light to indicate it's been successful, (or not). And if the signal isn't able to reach the server, the information is buffered and sent later.

But when bus fares weren't a flat rate, but based on the same zones we have on the SkyTrain, then the reader you tapped to get off had to have a signal so that it could tell where you boarded, to deduct the correct amount. If it couldn't get an instant signal, it caused a delay on getting the people off the bus, and so slowed unloading, and therefore loading as well. (People have to leave the bus before the people coming on can board). It couldn't deduct the fare as you boarded because it didn't know where you were going, so it didn't know how much to deduct from the card.

That was why Translink switched to a one zone fare, which meant the single tap getting on was all that was needed.

I can't believe that these boxes wouldn't have a persistent GPS connection. Is that really so hard? Can't you view where the busses are in real time already? Bonkers.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I can't believe that these boxes wouldn't have a persistent GPS connection. Is that really so hard? Can't you view where the busses are in real time already? Bonkers.

At the time when the new fare system was being introduced, no, there were frequent enough problems that the current solution was adopted.

And no, the real time data for buses isn't perfect either. I don't use that version, but the same data is on the TransLink next bus page. Every so often you'll see a bus stop for a couple of minutes, and then apparently jump a significant distance on a sbsequent refresh. I assume the connection is dropped briefly.