[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[ColSJ]

I think he’s referring to the pedway system which in the section of city hall is being completely redone to modernize the space. Several tenants are already lined up for the new spaces. Some renders of the project were posted on this thread a while back.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

I think he’s referring to the pedway system which in the section of city hall is being completely redone to modernize the space. Several tenants are already lined up for the new spaces. Some renders of the project were posted on this thread a while back.

Thanks - forgot about that!

[KnoxfordGuy]

Yes. Pedway

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

I think he’s referring to the pedway system which in the section of city hall is being completely redone to modernize the space. Several tenants are already lined up for the new spaces. Some renders of the project were posted on this thread a while back.

This is the Shoppes at City Hall, yeah? Recall seeing renders a while ago.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is the Shoppes at City Hall, yeah? Recall seeing renders a while ago.

Right. I forgot that’s a way to refer to that particular section.

[Pugsley]

With all the controversy the past few days with Market and Brunswick Square, I thought I'd dream a bit about what could be.

I think one of the biggest issues is that these structures have lost their focus over the years from what they were originally meant to be. Back in the 80s, Brunswick Square was the Fashion Centre where you would get the hottest and latest clothes and shoes from big chain retailers while Market Square was the “festival marketplace” concept with dining, attractions, and the convention centre. They worked well when there was a balance of focus for each complex but when Market Square became the destination for museum tours and books, and Brunswick Square stopped focusing on being a fashion-forward mall, things started to go downhill.

While controversial (I know I’ll get an earful on any sort of casino), I’ve always felt that re-establishing both existing buildings as distinct draws strategically for Uptown along with a third culture-focused complex would be a first step towards revival.

Here’s what I would do if I had some “Singapore-esq” all-powerful degree of authority where I could dictate public and private funding and decision-making at whim…. LOL:

Market Square

Return it to a “festival marketplace” as a convention, entertainment, food and drink venue. This is where the city should come to play and where major event planners short-list as the best convention destination in Canada.

1. Move the museum and replace it with a Casino. Make it a place where you can come downtown, regardless of the weather, and have dinner at one of the boardwalk restaurants followed by a fun night of gaming. Add a theatre space for live shows which could also be used as part of the convention centre (see below). Use gaming, live shows, and great food and drink a major draw for locals, weekend guests, and conferences.
2. Move the library to a new location (see below) and use this space for a multi-purpose entertainment destination such as The Rec Room (https://www.therecroom.com). Make it a space with food, games, team building and more – once again…suitable for locals, visitors, and conference attendees.
3. Move the existing office space tenant at the back (still Genysis?) to a new space within Brunswick Square. Ideally the third floor of the retail area to reduce the overall retail space (see below) or into one of the two adjoining towers.
4. Convert the office space noted above into a new Conference-focused Hotel (such as a Hyatt or a Westin) with a tower of rooms and additional meeting and convention space, - fully integrated into the existing Market Square complex. Position it as part of the broader Saint John Trade & Convention Centre with larger meeting space, a full theatre in the casino, two hotels, and ample food, beverage, and entertainment venues within the revised Market Square - offering one of the best and most appealing connected spaces for national and international conferences.

Brunswick Square

Return it to a fashion-focused mall with a smaller leasable space footprint, and a full first-floor food hall to support office workers in the Uptown.

1. Take the top floor (Level Three) and convert it office space. Remove the escalators to this level as well as access from Germain. Glass in the area around the atrium so that it offers a Class A office space visible from the rest of the mall or use the space facing the atrium to instal a digital light display or interior art piece to really make the rest of the atrium space exciting. Ideal for Genysis.
2. Keep the second and first floor as fashion-focused retail and attract national brands currently missing from the Saint John market yet suitable for the region: Brown’s, Coach, Dynamite, Guess, Jack & Jones, L’Occitane, LaSenza, Laura, Lululemon, Michael Kors, Oak + Fort, Olsen, Zara, and more. Focus on mid-level fashion-forward brands that only locate in more upscale retail spaces and see McAllister place as “off brand” given the mix of discount retailers. Attract 40 new chains suitable for both the local market as well as tourists from the cruise ships.
3. Revitalize the open area of the main floor of the atrium using best practices from major malls in other cities with comfortable lounge seating, communal tables, lounge-like lighting, and charging spaces - tie it to a refreshed food court experience. Look to places like Yorkdale in Toronto, Halifax Shopping Centre, or Rideau Centre as examples. Bring back Starbucks as well as other international food chains…that compliment but don’t compete with the more artisan offerings currently being developed as part of the City Market revitalization.
4. Move Lawton’s to 99 King as an anchor retailer on the main floor to support development of this much-needed residential project for Uptown.

New Waterfront Museum, Gallery, & Public Library Complex

Share the cost of building a new museum by incorporating it into a broader space with a new public library and art gallery along the waterfront. Use initial proceeds from casino revenues (fixed 3-4 year term as part of development agreement) combined with government and corporate funding/donations to finance the project.

1. Use the existing lands temporarily housing Area 506 Container Village, develop a cultural district housing three interconnected structures – a new NB Museum, a new Public Library, and a new Modern Art Gallery.
2. Create an iconic museum structure (major international architect competition) to house rotating displays from the NB museum, supported by external storage and archive/research facilities elsewhere in the city. Make it a showcase building along the central waterfront – one that is a draw unto its own. Think Guggenheim Bilboa, The City of Arts and Sciences in Valencia, The Museum Soumaya in Mexico City, etc.
3. Adjacent to the museum, build a new structure to support a more modern public library (moved from Market Square). Look to the Halifax Library for local inspiration with large glass windows and open spaces connecting it directly to the harbour and boardwalk. Much like the museum, make it a iconic space.
4. Incorporate a third structure for use as a contemporary or modern art gallery for the city. Get backing from major local industrialists (hint hint) and solicit donations as well as funding to build a world-renown collection to further establish Saint John as a cruise and visitor destination and Canadian cultural hub. Make it a part of the international competition and get a local family or families (hint hint again) to get naming rights.
5. Incorporate ample public art, outdoor performance spaces, and ground level retail to continue operating many of the exciting shops and experiences offered by the current container village – but permanent.

A pipe dream, I know. But wouldn’t it be great if we could just get everyone together in one room and say “Sit down, shut the F@$K up, and do this. No excuses, go…get it done!” LOL

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

With all the controversy the past few days with Market and Brunswick Square, I thought I'd dream a bit about what could be.

I think one of the biggest issues is that these structures have lost their focus over the years from what they were originally meant to be. Back in the 80s, Brunswick Square was the Fashion Centre where you would get the hottest and latest clothes and shoes from big chain retailers while Market Square was the “festival marketplace” concept with dining, attractions, and the convention centre. They worked well when there was a balance of focus for each complex but when Market Square became the destination for museum tours and books, and Brunswick Square stopped focusing on being a fashion-forward mall, things started to go downhill.

While controversial (I know I’ll get an earful on any sort of casino), I’ve always felt that re-establishing both existing buildings as distinct draws strategically for Uptown along with a third culture-focused complex would be a first step towards revival.

Here’s what I would do if I had some “Singapore-esq” all-powerful degree of authority where I could dictate public and private funding and decision-making at whim…. LOL:

Market Square

Return it to a “festival marketplace” as a convention, entertainment, food and drink venue. This is where the city should come to play and where major event planners short-list as the best convention destination in Canada.

1. Move the museum and replace it with a Casino. Make it a place where you can come downtown, regardless of the weather, and have dinner at one of the boardwalk restaurants followed by a fun night of gaming. Add a theatre space for live shows which could also be used as part of the convention centre (see below). Use gaming, live shows, and great food and drink a major draw for locals, weekend guests, and conferences.
2. Move the library to a new location (see below) and use this space for a multi-purpose entertainment destination such as The Rec Room (https://www.therecroom.com). Make it a space with food, games, team building and more – once again…suitable for locals, visitors, and conference attendees.
3. Move the existing office space tenant at the back (still Genysis?) to a new space within Brunswick Square. Ideally the third floor of the retail area to reduce the overall retail space (see below) or into one of the two adjoining towers.
4. Convert the office space noted above into a new Conference-focused Hotel (such as a Hyatt or a Westin) with a tower of rooms and additional meeting and convention space, - fully integrated into the existing Market Square complex. Position it as part of the broader Saint John Trade & Convention Centre with larger meeting space, a full theatre in the casino, two hotels, and ample food, beverage, and entertainment venues within the revised Market Square - offering one of the best and most appealing connected spaces for national and international conferences.

Brunswick Square

Return it to a fashion-focused mall with a smaller leasable space footprint, and a full first-floor food hall to support office workers in the Uptown.

1. Take the top floor (Level Three) and convert it office space. Remove the escalators to this level as well as access from Germain. Glass in the area around the atrium so that it offers a Class A office space visible from the rest of the mall or use the space facing the atrium to instal a digital light display or interior art piece to really make the rest of the atrium space exciting. Ideal for Genysis.
2. Keep the second and first floor as fashion-focused retail and attract national brands currently missing from the Saint John market yet suitable for the region: Brown’s, Coach, Dynamite, Guess, Jack & Jones, L’Occitane, LaSenza, Laura, Lululemon, Michael Kors, Oak + Fort, Olsen, Zara, and more. Focus on mid-level fashion-forward brands that only locate in more upscale retail spaces and see McAllister place as “off brand” given the mix of discount retailers. Attract 40 new chains suitable for both the local market as well as tourists from the cruise ships.
3. Revitalize the open area of the main floor of the atrium using best practices from major malls in other cities with comfortable lounge seating, communal tables, lounge-like lighting, and charging spaces - tie it to a refreshed food court experience. Look to places like Yorkdale in Toronto, Halifax Shopping Centre, or Rideau Centre as examples. Bring back Starbucks as well as other international food chains…that compliment but don’t compete with the more artisan offerings currently being developed as part of the City Market revitalization.
4. Move Lawton’s to 99 King as an anchor retailer on the main floor to support development of this much-needed residential project for Uptown.

New Waterfront Museum, Gallery, & Public Library Complex

Share the cost of building a new museum by incorporating it into a broader space with a new public library and art gallery along the waterfront. Use initial proceeds from casino revenues (fixed 3-4 year term as part of development agreement) combined with government and corporate funding/donations to finance the project.

1. Use the existing lands temporarily housing Area 506 Container Village, develop a cultural district housing three interconnected structures – a new NB Museum, a new Public Library, and a new Modern Art Gallery.
2. Create an iconic museum structure (major international architect competition) to house rotating displays from the NB museum, supported by external storage and archive/research facilities elsewhere in the city. Make it a showcase building along the central waterfront – one that is a draw unto its own. Think Guggenheim Bilboa, The City of Arts and Sciences in Valencia, The Museum Soumaya in Mexico City, etc.
3. Adjacent to the museum, build a new structure to support a more modern public library (moved from Market Square). Look to the Halifax Library for local inspiration with large glass windows and open spaces connecting it directly to the harbour and boardwalk. Much like the museum, make it a iconic space.
4. Incorporate a third structure for use as a contemporary or modern art gallery for the city. Get backing from major local industrialists (hint hint) and solicit donations as well as funding to build a world-renown collection to further establish Saint John as a cruise and visitor destination and Canadian cultural hub. Make it a part of the international competition and get a local family or families (hint hint again) to get naming rights.
5. Incorporate ample public art, outdoor performance spaces, and ground level retail to continue operating many of the exciting shops and experiences offered by the current container village – but permanent.

A pipe dream, I know. But wouldn’t it be great if we could just get everyone together in one room and say “Sit down, shut the F@$K up, and do this. No excuses, go…get it done!” LOL

Wow, that was a well thought out post. Possibly a "pipe dream" but I for one believe that most of your comments could and should come to fruition! The only real issue I have is the casino. I am against this as I have mentioned in previous posts. A study was done a number of years ago based on the experiences of other cities with casinos in their core and the decision was made not to endorse this kind of development. There's a reason Moncton's is not in the core.....

Now, that being said, Halifax seems to have had a positive experience with theirs from what I can tell so I am open to exploring it again but I compare Saint John to my hometown of Thunder Bay, Ontario. The 2 cities are very similar - size wise, ports, dt cores that have been in decline, major industry that has left etc. They put a casino in an old shopping mall in the heart of the downtown with the expectation that it would revitalize the area etc.

Although, Thunder Bay is currently seeing a bit of a renaissance, it is not because of the casino. The casino tends to attract clientele that typically cannot afford to be 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 their money. Casinos, in general and in my opinion, are like lottery tickets - a tax on the poor.

Thunder Bay would be a great case study for us - their renaissance is being driven by tourism - great scenery, a waterfront that has been restored with hotels, pleasure craft, cultural and historical venues and excursions to unspoiled wilderness attractions. In my mind, this is what we should be focussing on.

OK, that's my rant on casinos!

[UptownJeff]

I understand that the old HSBC bank location will be a "beer battered pizza" restaurant. Great to see this iconic location being developed by an experienced restaurant owner - it should be a great draw for the Uptown.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by UptownJeff

Wow, that was a well thought out post. Possibly a "pipe dream" but I for one believe that most of your comments could and should come to fruition! The only real issue I have is the casino. I am against this as I have mentioned in previous posts. A study was done a number of years ago based on the experiences of other cities with casinos in their core and the decision was made not to endorse this kind of development. There's a reason Moncton's is not in the core.....

Now, that being said, Halifax seems to have had a positive experience with theirs from what I can tell so I am open to exploring it again but I compare Saint John to my hometown of Thunder Bay, Ontario. The 2 cities are very similar - size wise, ports, dt cores that have been in decline, major industry that has left etc. They put a casino in an old shopping mall in the heart of the downtown with the expectation that it would revitalize the area etc.

Although, Thunder Bay is currently seeing a bit of a renaissance, it is not because of the casino. The casino tends to attract clientele that typically cannot afford to be 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 their money. Casinos, in general and in my opinion, are like lottery tickets - a tax on the poor.

Thunder Bay would be a great case study for us - their renaissance is being driven by tourism - great scenery, a waterfront that has been restored with hotels, pleasure craft, cultural and historical venues and excursions to unspoiled wilderness attractions. In my mind, this is what we should be focussing on.

OK, that's my rant on casinos!

LOL, I can agree with the concerns UptownJeff. I think if this was being proposed 10-15 years ago, when Uptown was in decline and the expectation was that a casino would "spur" economic activity, this would be spot on. However, I think we are in a very different position these days with Uptown being more diverse and attracting development without the need of any "magic solution".

In this current-day context, I think it would be more of a compliment to the overall growth well underway. Casinos rarely drive redevelopment and I think that has been well documented by many examples - so I agree, not the right investment to kick-start growth. In the Halifax case, the Casino was an additional attraction to what was already a well-established CBD and waterfront - it complimented the already growing surroundings as a destination. I think Saint John is in a better position today where a casino would have a more positive impact as a tourist attraction - as opposed to being an ill-advised tool for fuelling development.

As for Moncton, I actually wonder if NOT having the casino downtown has pulled focus away from their CBD as a destination in recent years. It's location at Magnetic Hill, as well as shopping being more on the fringe has somewhat hollowed out the downtown where recent news reports portray it as a place people avoid. The opposite of what we have in Saint John.

But again, I'm simply looking at it from a use of available space and what can and cannot be used to make it more appealing. The reason I suggest a casino is mostly related to increasing off-season tourism as well as creating a world-class conference setting...where planners love after-hour venues like casinos, restaurants, live entertainment and more to make their events even more attractive to ticket-buying conference attendees.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

LOL, I can agree with the concerns UptownJeff. I think if this was being proposed 10-15 years ago, when Uptown was in decline and the expectation was that a casino would "spur" economic activity, this would be spot on. However, I think we are in a very different position these days with Uptown being more diverse and attracting development without the need of any "magic solution".

In this current-day context, I think it would be more of a compliment to the overall growth well underway. Casinos rarely drive redevelopment and I think that has been well documented by many examples - so I agree, not the right investment to kick-start growth. In the Halifax case, the Casino was an additional attraction to what was already a well-established CBD and waterfront - it complimented the already growing surroundings as a destination. I think Saint John is in a better position today where a casino would have a more positive impact as a tourist attraction - as opposed to being an ill-advised tool for fuelling development.

As for Moncton, I actually wonder if NOT having the casino downtown has pulled focus away from their CBD as a destination in recent years. It's location at Magnetic Hill, as well as shopping being more on the fringe has somewhat hollowed out the downtown where recent news reports portray it as a place people avoid. The opposite of what we have in Saint John.

But again, I'm simply looking at it from a use of available space and what can and cannot be used to make it more appealing. The reason I suggest a casino is mostly related to increasing off-season tourism as well as creating a world-class conference setting...where planners love after-hour venues like casinos, restaurants, live entertainment and more to make their events even more attractive to ticket-buying conference attendees.

Excellent thoughts. Yes, that was 10-15 years ago and we are in a much different place today for sure. The Thunder Bay "experiment" was also pre-renaissance so your comments are certainly valid. We're verging on a mini-Halifax; so that comparison is great but I would still tread carefully.

I too have wondered about Moncton and their core - yes, retail has left and the issue I see is that there really isn't an identifiable core to speak of or a central attraction or draw. I know I'll get grief for saying this but I always called Moncton the Mississauga of New Brunswick - just alot of sprawl. In hindsight, maybe a casino would have been better placed downtown.

I would love to see Saint John become more of a destination - we are within a few hours of millions of people in the NE US and Central Canada. As the gateway to the Fundy Trail we need to DEVELOP, DEVELOP, DEVELOP! We also need to promote ourselves more effectively. Prior to moving here the only thing I had ever heard of was the Reversing Falls and Magnetic Hill in my high school geography class!

We are on the verge of something that will transformational and will drive our economic growth for decades to come.

[cdnguys]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[adamuptownsj]

With the Telegraph (28), Ritchie (15), 47 Canterbury (6), that's well north of 50 residents right downtown in just a few months in formerly vacant space. There's been ongoing work at 20 Canterbury too. It's about time the city parts ways with their lot on the northeast corner of Canterbury and Princess. At full capacity it's only earning $18K a year from 13 spots, far lower than what property tax would be on a decent sized building. Same with the private lot to its south across Princess, which is big enough to do a ton with.

How many people will realistically be living in the Uptown-South End-Waterloo Village area in a decade? Nine thousand?

[JHikka]

Ritchie building looks great.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

With the Telegraph (28), Ritchie (15), 47 Canterbury (6), that's well north of 50 residents right downtown in just a few months in formerly vacant space. There's been ongoing work at 20 Canterbury too. It's about time the city parts ways with their lot on the northeast corner of Canterbury and Princess. At full capacity it's only earning $18K a year from 13 spots, far lower than what property tax would be on a decent sized building. Same with the private lot to its south across Princess, which is big enough to do a ton with.

How many people will realistically be living in the Uptown-South End-Waterloo Village area in a decade? Nine thousand?

Pardon my nit pickiness here but the Telegraph is 34 units so even better. I don’t understand what’s going on with 20 Canterbury. It feels like that building has been under some form of renovation or another for several years now.

Between 2016-2021 Uptown-South End- Waterloo grew by 8.9% from 7552 to 8221. Assuming all the large scale projects in the pipeline get off the ground combined with the rate at which projects both big and small have been coming up I think achieving 10K somewheres within 5-10 years is realistic.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

Pardon my nit pickiness here but the Telegraph is 34 units so even better. I don’t understand what’s going on with 20 Canterbury. It feels like that building has been under some form of renovation or another for several years now.

Between 2016-2021 Uptown-South End- Waterloo grew by 8.9% from 7552 to 8221. Assuming all the large scale projects in the pipeline get off the ground combined with the rate at which projects both big and small have been coming up I think achieving 10K somewheres within 5-10 years is realistic.

Thanks for that correction. I thought we went from 7200-7700 for some reason.
Historical peak was what, 13,000?

IIRC 20 Canterbury is owned by and partially used by the dentist next door. I think he has a conference room or something on the third floor.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Thanks for that correction. I thought we went from 7200-7700 for some reason.
Historical peak was what, 13,000?

IIRC 20 Canterbury is owned by and partially used by the dentist next door. I think he has a conference room or something on the third floor.

According to this webpage, you are correct. Kind of neat to think we could break the record sooner than later.

https://formaclorimerbooks.ca/product/th...homeless%20and%20livelihoods%20destroyed.

[adamuptownsj]

Workers on site at Steepleview- not many, and they seem to be messing around with some pressure treated wood, but hey, that's something.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Workers on site at Steepleview- not many, and they seem to be messing around with some pressure treated wood, but hey, that's something.

Q2 2023. They were probably fussing with stuff for their project on Brunswick Drive

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Q2 2023. They were probably fussing with stuff for their project on Brunswick Drive

I don't think the 12-unit at Middle and Brunswick has anything to do with the Church. They're ALSO working on a (roughly 12)-unit project on the corner of Richmond and Waterloo, which is also going to be supported/transitional women's housing. Should be in the same PAC agenda as Steepleview.

Or I'm completely mistaken. Or you were referring to the construction company, not the owners, and I may be totally mistaken.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Workers on site at Steepleview- not many, and they seem to be messing around with some pressure treated wood, but hey, that's something.

Someone affiliated with the project said they were getting new estimates on costing October 31st. If it was feasible they would start foundation work ~Nov 21 and move onto construction in the spring.

Maybe this is a sign the cost estimates were favourable.