Halifax Population & Growth

[Keith P.]

It is easy to lose track of a city's growth if you are living in it long-term. The growth happens slowly enough that you don't notice a lot of it and nothing seems very different aside from some newer, bigger buildings replacing old ones. Normally you would detect new/expanded streets and roadways but of course that does not happen in HRM, where streets are modified to give them less capacity. That does result in the one symptom most people would notice, which is horrific traffic, especially at peak times.

But when you haven't been in a place for a while, it hits you right between the eyes. I had not been in Moncton aside from driving past it on the Trans-Canada for decades until recently. I was astounded at the growth. The areas that used to be sleepy ramshackle suburbs are now like the outskirts of any other major North American city, with collector roads, huge shopping areas, office buildings, and (yes) horrific traffic. It was a real eye-opener. In some ways it put HRM to shame.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It is easy to lose track of a city's growth if you are living in it long-term. The growth happens slowly enough that you don't notice a lot of it and nothing seems very different aside from some newer, bigger buildings replacing old ones. Normally you would detect new/expanded streets and roadways but of course that does not happen in HRM, where streets are modified to give them less capacity. That does result in the one symptom most people would notice, which is horrific traffic, especially at peak times.

But when you haven't been in a place for a while, it hits you right between the eyes. I had not been in Moncton aside from driving past it on the Trans-Canada for decades until recently. I was astounded at the growth. The areas that used to be sleepy ramshackle suburbs are now like the outskirts of any other major North American city, with collector roads, huge shopping areas, office buildings, and (yes) horrific traffic. It was a real eye-opener. In some ways it put HRM to shame.

I don't agree. Halifax growth is much more visible than Moncton's, and Halifax growth rate is higher than Moncton's. Almost all of Moncton's growth is suburban, although I think that is changing a bit with more downtown development there recently.

[HfxGuy]

"I was astounded at the growth. The areas that used to be sleepy ramshackle suburbs are now like the outskirts of any other major North American city, with collector roads, huge shopping areas, office buildings, and (yes) horrific traffic. It was a real eye-opener. In some ways it put HRM to shame."


Ahh yes! I wish my city would invest in more stroads, 6 lane connectors and suburban sprawl /s.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I don't agree. Halifax growth is much more visible than Moncton's, and Halifax growth rate is higher than Moncton's. Almost all of Moncton's growth is suburban, although I think that is changing a bit with more downtown development there recently.

His point is that he was inured to the growth in Halifax since he lives in Halifax, and the growth occurred organically around him in such a manner that it became somewhat unnoticeable.

On the other hand, he had not been in Moncton for decades, and he remembered what Moncton looked like 25 years ago. When he went back after this interval and saw the changes, it smacked him in the face. It was shocking to him.

This is perfectly understandable. It is part of the human condition.

Keith wasn't saying that Moncton was growing faster than Halifax (although in relative terms, it is somewhat equivalent in terms of growth rate), he was just saying that in terms of a snapshot taken 25 years apart, you could really see the changes.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It is easy to lose track of a city's growth if you are living in it long-term.

Yeah, it's definitely really hard to see the change when you're living in it. What really got me was going back on this forum to some posts from 10 years ago, and realizing how far things have come in that short time. For a while there the only thread with active progress shots was the Central Library. Now there are very major projects that don't even warrant much attention. I went to Mic Mac Mall for the first time in ages yesterday and drove past the tower that Armour Group is putting up across from the mall. It was just like, "huh, there's a tower there now all of a sudden - I haven't seen an SPP update on that one in ages".

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Yeah, it's definitely really hard to see the change when you're living in it. What really got me was going back on this forum to some posts from 10 years ago, and realizing how far things have come in that short time. For a while there the only thread with active progress shots was the Central Library. Now there are very major projects that don't even warrant much attention. I went to Mic Mac Mall for the first time in ages yesterday and drove past the tower that Armour Group is putting up across from the mall. It was just like, "huh, there's a tower there now all of a sudden - I haven't seen an SPP update on that one in ages".

Yeah, I've experienced that a few times in the past year when I've driven through areas that I hadn't been in awhile. Even following the developments on this forum I'm still surprised from time to time. Kinda like: "Whoa! When did they build this!??"...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

His point is that he was inured to the growth in Halifax since he lives in Halifax, and the growth occurred organically around him in such a manner that it became somewhat unnoticeable.

On the other hand, he had not been in Moncton for decades, and he remembered what Moncton looked like 25 years ago. When he went back after this interval and saw the changes, it smacked him in the face. It was shocking to him.

This is perfectly understandable. It is part of the human condition.

Keith wasn't saying that Moncton was growing faster than Halifax (although in relative terms, it is somewhat equivalent in terms of growth rate), he was just saying that in terms of a snapshot taken 25 years apart, you could really see the changes.

That's what I got out of his post as well, but it's easy to trigger the anti-suburban sentiment on this forum, even when you're not trying...

Sometimes it's as if people don't even try to understand what is being said, unfortunately.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I don't agree. Halifax growth is much more visible than Moncton's, and Halifax growth rate is higher than Moncton's. Almost all of Moncton's growth is suburban, although I think that is changing a bit with more downtown development there recently.

Since I specifically mentioned I was talking about suburban areas, I am at a loss.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

But when you haven't been in a place for a while, it hits you right between the eyes. I had not been in Moncton aside from driving past it on the Trans-Canada for decades until recently. I was astounded at the growth. The areas that used to be sleepy ramshackle suburbs are now like the outskirts of any other major North American city, with collector roads, huge shopping areas, office buildings, and (yes) horrific traffic. It was a real eye-opener. In some ways it put HRM to shame.

None of this is positive, really. Moncton will continue to sprawl until it no longer makes sense to do so but the positive changes in its core should be its focus, not new strip malls and SFHs on relatively large lots.

I don't think Moncton does anything in particular better than Halifax.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of people have no clue what the population numbers are but some people do build narratives around them.

As an example NS is sometimes still presented as a "minor province" (synonymous with Atlantic) while SK/MB are not. NS is closer in population to SK than NB.

Also a far more fair comparison is putting the 3 Maritime provinces against any 1 other. We are still the smallest in area but have ~2 Million in population. That's solidly ahead of SK or MB.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JHikka

None of this is positive, really. Moncton will continue to sprawl until it no longer makes sense to do so but the positive changes in its core should be its focus, not new strip malls and SFHs on relatively large lots.

I don't think Moncton does anything in particular better than Halifax.

If you read it again, I think you will find that Keith's post is not championing the dreaded suburban development. He is simply saying he hadn't been to Moncton in a long time and was surprised by how much it changed, while this was less noticeable to him living in Halifax because he was here to witness the changes incrementally.

I'm not sure where people are getting this to be a suburban vs urban, or Moncton vs Halifax debate...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

If you read it again, I think you will find that Keith's post is not championing the dreaded suburban development. He is simply saying he hadn't been to Moncton in a long time and was surprised by how much it changed, while this was less noticeable to him living in Halifax because he was here to witness the changes incrementally.

I'm not sure where people are getting this to be a suburban vs urban, or Moncton vs Halifax debate...

Visually and physically there's been a lot of change in Halifax with regards to new builds, more dense builds, and taller builds. I'm not sure how else i'm supposed to interpret 'it puts HRM to shame' comparatively. There's plenty of change to be seen in Halifax if one wants to look for it from beyond the front windshield of their vehicle.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Visually and physically there's been a lot of change in Halifax with regards to new builds, more dense builds, and taller builds. I'm not sure how else i'm supposed to interpret 'it puts HRM to shame' comparatively. There's plenty of change to be seen in Halifax if one wants to look for it from beyond the front windshield of their vehicle.

Oh, I see what you were focusing on. I blew it off as an offhand comment that really didn't change the point of the post.

FWIW, I don't think anybody is saying that Halifax hasn't changed, quite the opposite either, but this isn't my fight, so I'll step aside...

[q12]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The areas that used to be sleepy ramshackle suburbs are now like the outskirts of any other major North American city, with collector roads, huge shopping areas, office buildings, and (yes) horrific traffic. It was a real eye-opener. In some ways it put HRM to shame.

I don't follow how that puts HRM to shame?

Here is the suburban Utopia you describe in your own backyard:



Which 17 years ago looked like this:



OR look at how all of Burnside has changed:

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Visually and physically there's been a lot of change in Halifax with regards to new builds, more dense builds, and taller builds. I'm not sure how else i'm supposed to interpret 'it puts HRM to shame' comparatively. There's plenty of change to be seen in Halifax if one wants to look for it from beyond the front windshield of their vehicle.

Halifax has been getting new modes of development that to me are more associated with larger cities. More variety, bigger and better buildings farther out, more pedestrian and transit orientation and less car orientation, etc.

Another little change is what kind of businesses operate where. You used to see a lot of low end mom and pops in prime areas that have been slowly migrating outward while the core is taking on more of a larger scale or higher end commercial feel. There are also more tenants filling in new spaces like basements, shops on the second floor, and so on. Even out in Burnside you've got IKEA and perhaps the Amazon warehouse which are characteristic of larger cities.

In a lot of ways it has as much of a city feel as some much bigger Canadian metro areas, although it's still definitely not like a major metro area and hub with millions of people. It is a bit of a strange animal in North America, where there aren't many regional hubs of that size. Europe's small countries or small islands around the world have more cities of that type.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by q12

I don't follow how that puts HRM to shame?

It is quite amusing to see the sensitivity of some to my innocuous comment.

A couple of points which I will make at my peril:

The HRM examples of this are Burnside, Bayers Lake, and the Larry Uteck area.

Both Burnside and Bayers were originally conceived as industrial parks. As such, both have an odd mix of low-traffic industrial businesses and high-traffic retail. This means both use undersized surface streets such as Wright Ave for access, and even newer areas such as Dartmouth Crossing with its joyous multilane 4-way stop intersections can be problematic. Then you have Uteck with its roundabouts and single-lane roadway. None of them are paragons of transportation design.

What I saw in Moncton seemed different. The growth had taken place in and around existing suburbs. There was much residential bordering the newer areas, most of which appeared to be preexisting. Somehow the city or province managed to build suitably-sized roadways for access amidst all that. Is it better or worse than HRM? I cannot say, although they certainly have done a better job of making the area accessible versus our examples of Wright Ave and the meandering Chain Lake Dr.. All I was saying was that the growth over the last 20 years was impressive. Take a breath.

[MonctonRad]

You have to keep in mind this is a Halifax thread. Saying anything positive about Moncton in this thread is absolutely verboten!

Wullerton!!! (spit)

Apologies to Corner Gas.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by q12

I don't follow how that puts HRM to shame?

Here is the suburban Utopia you describe in your own backyard:
Which 17 years ago looked like this:

OR look at how all of Burnside has changed:

Great pics, q12! Are they all from Google Earth? It looks like you can toggle back many years to follow the development of the area from above. I haven't used it in some time, but I must make a point to spend some time on it one of these days.

The photos are great in that they illustrate that Dartmouth Crossing was built on the former Steed and Evans quarry, which was basically wasteland turned into a popular shopping area.

IIRC, the progression of Burnside was the plan right from the start. While this isn't a popular view on SSP, Burnside is a great resource for the city and has been very successful over the 50+ years that it has been in existence. I actually worked there many years and would still take it over an office in the downtown for many reasons (I'll now go stand in the corner as punishment for my views...).

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of people have no clue what the population numbers are but some people do build narratives around them.

As an example NS is sometimes still presented as a "minor province" (synonymous with Atlantic) while SK/MB are not. NS is closer in population to SK than NB.

As another example a lot of people from elsewhere tend to group Halifax in with smaller rather than larger cities. For example on SSP you are likely to see comparisons between Halifax and cities under 300k but people will object if you compare it to one over 800k without adding some kind of caveat about how it can't really be the same due to the population difference.

A while back I read a comment by somebody from Halifax who visited Quebec City and said he was finally in a "real city". While Quebec City has more heritage buildings, and I think most heritage buildings are nicer than most new buildings, I wonder how much bigger and busier the urban core is these days or will be after another 10 years. I wonder if a neutral visitor with no prior knowledge of either town (cruise ship visitor from NY) would notice a size difference these days.

I am sort of the opposite of the visitor you described in that I live in Halifax but have a cottage just outside Quebec City and spend a lot of time in both cities. But as such, I would say that if you only consider the old city core, Halifax feels not that far off of QC with less historical architecture left but actually more "big city" towers etc. It's when you leave the core that QC definitely has the feel of a much bigger city than Halifax. The density is more continuous and has more urban feel whereas Halifax switches to a suburban feel without too much distance from the core. Both certainly suffer in a mass transport sense from the impact their geography/geology have on their ability to efficiently deliver mass transit open to and from the core.

[q12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Great pics, q12! Are they all from Google Earth? It looks like you can toggle back many years to follow the development of the area from above. I haven't used it in some time, but I must make a point to spend some time on it one of these days.

Google Earth Pro for Desktop:

https://www.google.com/earth/versions/

Once installed click on view at the top ----> historical imagery.