HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #6661  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 4:49 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I recall being at a Fury match years ago in the rain and people complaining in the concourse that it was counterintuitive for the 'main' stand (south) being uncovered and used for those matches despite the fact that the unused stand (north) was covered and empty.

There are a number of oversights in the Lansdowne project but this seems to be one of the most glaring. Stadiums are moving from uncovered to covered, or to semi-domed in some instances, so for Ottawa to build a new stand with no covering whatsoever is unwise in today's environment. I don't recall seeing anything for a new North stand yet but if the same processes are taken as with the South then i'm not holding my breath.

Portland recently renovated their new main stand and it has sufficient covering, as one example:

Portland's stadium looks really good.

Under Jim Watson, everything was value engineered to death, and that is the result. O-Train is the same; functional, but basic.

As per thurmas's post earlier, Sutcliffe seems a little more open to making improvements beyond the basics. His quote “What I was writing about at that time, which I still believe in, is that I don’t think we should fall into the trap of always trying to make everything revenue neutral as a justification for something,” might suggest he would consider requests from the public, such as a canopy over the new North Side Stands and making the arena green roof accessible, even if it means investing a bit more money to the point where the overall project won't be "revenue neutral".
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6662  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 9:26 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
SUSPENDED
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
What's there now barely covers the top rows of the south side stands.
Ok, I am getting confused, is there something there (a fabric material over the wood) or not. I am not thinking of a previous design I am thinking of the present structure and that it was supposed to have a small fabric cover near the very top of the veil. It may have been scaled back because IIRC correctly there were supposed to be some veil elements along the North side that were dropped.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6663  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 9:48 PM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Ok, I am getting confused, is there something there (a fabric material over the wood) or not. I am not thinking of a previous design I am thinking of the present structure and that it was supposed to have a small fabric cover near the very top of the veil. It may have been scaled back because IIRC correctly there were supposed to be some veil elements along the North side that were dropped.
I can't recall ever hearing that possibility for the overhang at TD
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6664  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 9:52 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Gros Méchant Loup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 72,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Ok, I am getting confused, is there something there (a fabric material over the wood) or not. I am not thinking of a previous design I am thinking of the present structure and that it was supposed to have a small fabric cover near the very top of the veil. It may have been scaled back because IIRC correctly there were supposed to be some veil elements along the North side that were dropped.
Sorry. Yeah I don't think there is any fabric so I think it probably rains right through it. Though as you can see from the pictures it wouldn't do much anyway.

I seem to recall the north side roof was cut back during the renovations.

It used to cover the entire grandstand almost down to the bottom row, but I think rows 1 to 25 or 30 are uncovered now.
__________________
Loin des yeux, loin du coeur.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6665  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 11:20 PM
Harrison's Avatar
Harrison Harrison is offline
A Better Place
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 3,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
This should simplify things in many ways for it will push the province to top things up.

I don't love the design, but would love to see the interior layout and circulation, for Rogers Place is less than ideal in multiple spots and really does separate the two bowls in a negative way for fans.

The Province should be providing exactly zero funding to any future Calgary arena for the Flames.
__________________
Bingo bango bongo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6666  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 1:45 AM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is online now
Great White North
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 15,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison View Post
The Province should be providing exactly zero funding to any future Calgary arena for the Flames.
yeah don't be like Buffalo with the future Bills stadium handing over $650M in state taxpayer funds and $200M of county/local taxpayer funds for a ~$1.4B stadium
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6667  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:15 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
SUSPENDED
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I seem to recall the north side roof was cut back during the renovations.
It was. The whole build was documented in photos and then the picture host ceased to exist and all the photos were lost. Yes, the North side roof was restructured and covered less than previously, but that was not what I was talking about.

The original design had small wooden veil elements around the end of the North side structure IIRC. I am not talking about it looking like the big veil around and over the south side. I'll see if I can find the original design.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6668  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:40 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
SUSPENDED
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Ok, finally found it. Had to use the Wayback Machine. This is why some full articles should be posted. News sites will not publicly archive them and the history will be lost. Got lucky on this one. Unfortunately no photos but the print evidence is there.

Early stadium design wins kudos from panel
Don Butler, The Ottawa Citizen May 1, 2010

If Rob Claiborne has his way, a sculpted “stadium in the park” will replace the rotting hulk of Frank Clair stadium by 2013.

Claiborne is the architect chosen to design the stadium as part of the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park. He works for Cannon Design, the firm behind the much-admired Olympic Oval in Richmond, B.C.

His conceptual design for the new Frank Clair stadium has already won kudos from experts on the review panel overseeing the design of the Lansdowne Park plan.

George Dark, the renowned urban designer who chairs the panel, calls Claiborne’s design “quite cool. There’s quite an imaginative stadium being cooked up here.”

Another panel member, Rick Haldenby, the head of the University of Waterloo’s architecture school, is even more effusive.

If Claiborne’s design is accepted by city council on June 23, Haldenby says, “it’s going to be an instant architectural feature in Canada — the most interesting stadium in Canada by far.”

Claiborne knows he’s got something special. He describes his design, which he’s been working on since December, as a “gift to the city of Ottawa. I’m just thrilled, because people seem to be enjoying it.”

Its most striking feature is a sinuous $7.5-million “veil” of glued laminated Alaskan yellow cedar that rises up from behind new southside stands and curls over the top, creating a flowing system of enclosure and roofing.

Claiborne uses the same veil motif at the entrances to the northside stands. It recurs as well behind the end zone scoreboard, creating a bandstand that could be used during outdoor concerts in Lansdowne Park’s proposed “front lawn” urban park.

“I always saw this project being done in wood,” Claiborne says, proudly showing off his plans in Cannon Design’s 12th floor offices overlooking University Avenue in Toronto.

In part it’s a reference to Ottawa’s lumber-town past, but it also fits Claiborne’s daring concept of a stadium in the park. To do that, he says, “you have to be much more natural.”

Claiborne chose Alaskan yellow cedar for the veil because it withstands the weather well.

“It will turn a beautiful silvery colour over time, but in all our conversations with the manufacturers, they’re quite comfortable that this will maintain its structural integrity.”

In Claiborne’s design, the southside stands seem to emerge organically from a steep grassy berm that rises seven metres from the Queen Elizabeth Driveway. “You can actually see the park bending up, merging into the stadium,” the architect says.

It’s all part of his concept of “laminar space, a space that literally flows. The parklands become sculpted, undulating, flowing. That became really important to me.”

The wooden frames of the veil are part of that idea of flow, he says. At the concourse level of the southside stands, the public can walk or ride bicycles right through the veil, even on game days.

“Typically a stadium’s going to have a very clear border, a buffer,” Claiborne says. “There’s a public side, and there’s a stadium side. Not the case here. It’s not just lip service about being in the park. It is in the park.”

Lansdowne Park, he says, has never really been a park. “It was a fairgrounds, it was a carnival site, it was a series of venues, but it was never actually parkland. Now, for the first time, it’s a park.”

To improve spectator sightlines and enhance the stadium’s bowl appearance, Claiborne proposes to lower the current playing field by about one metre. “That one’s still a cost issue,” he cautions, “because it’s expensive to lower the field.”

On a pragmatic level, lowering the field makes it easier to widen it to 75 yards, the standard for FIFA soccer games. The current field is only 70 yards wide.

Under Claiborne’s plan, the remaining southside stands — Dark describes them as a “hideous lump” — would be demolished and replaced by new stands. The existing northside stands would stay, but get a retrofit.

New wider seats would be installed and the heavy metal roof would be replaced by the same translucent fabric used on the southside roof.

Claiborne is considering two possible suppliers for the roof fabric. His preferred choice is a German-Italian company called Vector Foiltec, which made the clear exterior panels for the Beijing Olympics’ aquatic centre, dubbed the Water Cube.


The stadium would have seating for 24,000 — 13,000 in the northside stands and 11,000 in the southside. It would offer three levels of seating — general, club seats and seats in 28 box suites.

For events such as the Grey Cup, temporary end zone seats could be installed, raising the stadium’s capacity to 45,000. Otherwise, the end zones would be grassy berms where people could sit or enjoy a picnic.

Claiborne’s plan calls for a two-storey retail component that would provide improved entrances to the arena and enclose the mammoth steel frames on the north facade of the Civic Centre.

Those sloping steel frames disrupt the view of the Aberdeen Pavilion, with its soft curves, Claiborne explains. “The second you put a vertical face here, it calms the entire vista.”

While the arena, home to the Ottawa 67’s, needs considerable work to address a long list of mechanical, electrical and structural problems, its design would remain essentially unchanged.

“If we turn it into a first-class arena,” Claiborne says, “the ticket prices have to go up considerably. The Ottawa 67’s are a very successful club, but they would be less successful if they had to double their ticket price.”

So far, Claiborne says cost estimates for the project are on target. “We have a budget of $85 million, not a penny more, for the stadium,” he says. “We’re right where we should be.” (The price tag rises to $110 million when “soft costs” such as professional fees are included.)

Dark says Claiborne’s thinking is “quite magical. He’s a smart guy.” Based on the design work he’s seen, Dark says the new stadium has the potential to rival the Richmond Oval as an iconic Canadian sporting venue.

Claiborne isn’t entirely at ease with the word icon, though. “An icon carries so much gravity with it. I would be more comfortable if this was a building people looked at and just had a comfortable, warm feeling about. If it was close to being universally liked, that would make me happy.”

Before joining Cannon Design about a year ago, Claiborne, a California native, worked for years for acclaimed architect Daniel Libeskind. He’s also an adjunct professor at McGill University’s school of architecture.

He’s acutely aware of the controversy surrounding the Lansdowne project.

He has relatives in Old Ottawa South — the area, along with the Glebe, where opposition to the redevelopment is concentrated — “and they hate me. They think I’m the devil because I’m working on Lansdowne Park.”

But Claiborne is hoping opposition will abate once people see his design. “Good architecture can be a great appeasement for everybody. People can actually enjoy it. And that’s the goal.

“It’s a building for the people. I’ve never lost sight of that for a second.”

For now, Claiborne’s stadium is just a concept on paper. But he’s optimistic that by 2013, it will be home to a new Ottawa CFL team.

“I go home every weekend and I’m having a glass of wine with my wife and I say, ‘Carolyn, you’re not going to believe this. This might actually get built’.”

Last edited by elly63; Oct 27, 2022 at 5:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6669  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:45 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
SUSPENDED
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
In regards to the above, I think the fabric roof proposed for the North side and the wooden entrance veil ideas were discarded early on. But I was always under the impression that there would be a fabric section near the top of the South side veil to provide a little cover.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6670  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 12:51 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
Here are some earlier renderings where the veil seems more pronounced. Some seem to hint at some sort of fabric. One shows a completely different roof to the North Side, better matching South.


https://www.urbancapital.ca/trends-in-design


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...sale-1.2433423


https://www.ottawalansdownepark.com/...pment-project/


https://www.archiseek.com/2010/lansd...igns-unveiled/

Plenty of renderings here, but it won't let me post the images:

http://stadiumdb.com/designs/can/frank_clair_stadium

But yeah, Ottawa has a way of taking an architect's vision and value engineering it to death.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6671  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 2:00 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison View Post
The Province should be providing exactly zero funding to any future Calgary arena for the Flames.
Why? Edmonton gets the provincial education property tax for the arena to help pay for the arena.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6672  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 2:40 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is online now
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 68,776
CRLs are not quite the same as direct capital funding.
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6673  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:03 PM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is online now
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 25,619
I agree the Flames should get zero provincial funding. The UCP hasn't even offered any money yet. Just a 'helping hand'. I'm suspicious of the entire thing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6674  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:39 PM
Harrison's Avatar
Harrison Harrison is offline
A Better Place
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 3,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
CRLs are not quite the same as direct capital funding.
Exactly, Rogers Place didn't get any direct funding for construction and the same should happen with any future arena in Calgary.
__________________
Bingo bango bongo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6675  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:40 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is online now
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 68,776
A CRL (don't believe there is one now) makes sense for the southern portion of the East Village given how little is developed there and how much potential uplift exists.
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6676  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 4:42 PM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is online now
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 25,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
A CRL (don't believe there is one now) makes sense for the southern portion of the East Village given how little is developed there and how much potential uplift exists.
A CRL already exists for Victoria park (East Village is north of the tracks and completely separate) that is helping to pay for the new BMO centre expansion. I have no idea what the province is considering offering besides 'goodwill' and political interference.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6677  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 5:33 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
CRLs are not quite the same as direct capital funding.
Sure they are. Transfers provincial revenue to the city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6678  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2022, 4:09 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Speaking of stadiums with no coverings...

McMahon today:

https://twitter.com/calstampeders/st...33016260628480
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6679  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2022, 5:09 PM
TorontoDrew's Avatar
TorontoDrew TorontoDrew is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 10,527
I love that we build stadiums in this country like we live in a sub tropical cliamte.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6680  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2022, 5:27 PM
Nashe's Avatar
Nashe Nashe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Moncton, NB
Posts: 2,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoDrew View Post
I love that we build stadiums in this country like we live in a sub tropical cliamte.
We are a hardy (and cheap!) people.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:41 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.