PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by jaysb

Dumb-ish question for the board.....I was driving around all of development in Northern Liberties on Tuesday and I got to thinking...we've all heard how antiquated our water/sewage systems are. We've gone from a population of 2MM->1.6MM but it certainly wasn't the density were are seeing being built around the Piazza etc. How are we adding so much density on antiquated infrastructure? Was this updated recently? Were they originally over-built to handle this? Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

I would say the Water Department might be the one city department that is a leader in its peer group.

I want to say about 10 or 12 years ago it revised building guidelines to focus on increasing the permeability of the city's surfaces which is why you see so many buildings with green roofs, etc. Developers get bonuses for using them. In other small ways, ex: there's a charge on our water bill now that in effect assesses a surcharge for runoff (i.e. shopping centers pay more on this charge assuming the lot is a massive parking lot)...I'm not 100% sure how this money is used but my guess is it is to update outdate existing infrastructure when it does need to be replaced. Developers are also required to build underground storage tanks for overflow that hold water in downpours before it is released to the sewer systems.

These things might seem like very incremental measures, but they make a huge difference in aggregate. Northern Liberties used have flooding multiple times a year, especially along St John Newman Way near Liberty Lands Park. Knock on wood, I don't think it's had flooding like that in close to a decade since these measures were implemented.

[mcgrath618]

The Water Department has also been steadily removing the combined sewer/stormwater system wherever possible. If you look at Google Maps Satellite View of NoLibs you can actually see them doing a ton of utility work.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by MAC123

No, they really aren't.

Those pencil towers don't even have the floors all occupied and supertalls are worse for the environment. The amount of energy that is require to keep supertalls running is insane.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by jaysb

Dumb-ish question for the board.....I was driving around all of development in Northern Liberties on Tuesday and I got to thinking...we've all heard how antiquated our water/sewage systems are. We've gone from a population of 2MM->1.6MM but it certainly wasn't the density were are seeing being built around the Piazza etc. How are we adding so much density on antiquated infrastructure? Was this updated recently? Were they originally over-built to handle this? Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

IN terms of capacity the system was built out to handle higher population so that isn't really the problem, just age of infrastructure. A lot is being replaced, but any utility replacement project is a very slow, complex endeavor so progress is very incremental- hence water main breaks in the winter of mains that are often 80+ years old.

[SouthCentralPA]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

The Water Department has also been steadily removing the combined sewer/stormwater system wherever possible. If you look at Google Maps Satellite View of NoLibs you can actually see them doing a ton of utility work.

Yeah a big reason a wastewater plant can't handle all of the flow is when it's a combined system and large amounts of stormwater enters the system when it rains.

One way to minimize that is what you said - remove the combined systems and have separate sanitary and stormwater pipes. However, that is expensive and very disruptive with digging up the roadways. Other ways to limit the amount of stormwater in combined sewers is to install infiltration areas - whether that be a green roof, median, curb bump-out, basin in a park, etc. That way more stormwater infiltrates on site and stays out of the combined system.

Also, wastewater plants should be designed to be able to handle a significant amount over the "usual" amount they receive. But I don't know what levels Philadelphia wastewater plants are designed to handle. Because even if you can remove a lot of stormwater, you'll probably still be getting some groundwater infiltration into sanitary lines, so the plants need to be able to handle more than the number of customers hooked up to the lines.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by SouthCentralPA

Yeah a big reason a wastewater plant can't handle all of the flow is when it's a combined system and large amounts of stormwater enters the system when it rains.

One way to minimize that is what you said - remove the combined systems and have separate sanitary and stormwater pipes. However, that is expensive and very disruptive with digging up the roadways. Other ways to limit the amount of stormwater in combined sewers is to install infiltration areas - whether that be a green roof, median, curb bump-out, basin in a park, etc. That way more stormwater infiltrates on site and stays out of the combined system.

Also, wastewater plants should be designed to be able to handle a significant amount over the "usual" amount they receive. But I don't know what levels Philadelphia wastewater plants are designed to handle. Because even if you can remove a lot of stormwater, you'll probably still be getting some groundwater infiltration into sanitary lines, so the plants need to be able to handle more than the number of customers hooked up to the lines.

Makes sense, when I lived there from 11-16 NLNA was pushing hard on the run-off mitigation with rain barrels etc.

I wasn't as much concerned with the plants themselves, rather what happens to the local pipes when you drop some pretty dense developments into what was historically row homes...
Anyway, appreciate the answers.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by SouthCentralPA

Yeah a big reason a wastewater plant can't handle all of the flow is when it's a combined system and large amounts of stormwater enters the system when it rains.

One way to minimize that is what you said - remove the combined systems and have separate sanitary and stormwater pipes. However, that is expensive and very disruptive with digging up the roadways. Other ways to limit the amount of stormwater in combined sewers is to install infiltration areas - whether that be a green roof, median, curb bump-out, basin in a park, etc. That way more stormwater infiltrates on site and stays out of the combined system.

Also, wastewater plants should be designed to be able to handle a significant amount over the "usual" amount they receive. But I don't know what levels Philadelphia wastewater plants are designed to handle. Because even if you can remove a lot of stormwater, you'll probably still be getting some groundwater infiltration into sanitary lines, so the plants need to be able to handle more than the number of customers hooked up to the lines.

PWD has one of the largest stormwater management implementation plans of any large city- it's why they are putting rain gardens and stormwater bumpouts all over the place to reduce the amount of rainwater going into the CSO around the city. PArts of the city built after WW2 do not have combined sewers, but the areas with the highest population density are on the combined system. From what I recall other cities such as DC that have similar problems have constructed massive tunnels to hold excess sewage from major storm events but Philadelphia didn't want to take that expensive and disruptive approach to reduce its sewage discharge into the river when the treatment capacity is overwhelmed during storms.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by arkitect13

1700 race, got new renderings and a redesign.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbYONvlJNGQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Originally Posted by allovertown

Still not worthy of the building it's replacing.

I think the clock ran out on the zoning permits from 2019. Meanwhile a nomination for historic designation of 1700-06 Race St has just dropped, prepared by Kevin McMahon as a consultant to the Preservation Alliance.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PhiladelphiaIndustrialHeritage/posts/3353043071650989

Nomination: https://www.phila.gov/media/20221026152711/1700-06-Race-St-nomination.pdf

Additionally, the combined property is listed as “temporarily off market,” but the owner had apparently been asking $12.5M earlier this year:
https://www.longandfoster.com/commercial-for-sale/1700-Race-Street-Philadelphia-PA-19103-326675443

7/21/2022 Temporarily Off Market $12,500,000 USD MLS info
2/8/2022 Active $12,500,000 USD MLS info

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

I think the clock ran out on the zoning permits from 2019. Meanwhile a nomination for historic designation of 1700-06 Race St has just dropped, prepared by Kevin McMahon as a consultant to the Preservation Alliance.

I said it several months ago.. I don't find very much unique about this building. Many elements were obviously replaced and redone over the years. There's thousands of buildings in Philadelphia that look real similar just falling over because no one values the land at all. I just don't think it's worthy



I always liked the various conceptual renderings

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I said it several months ago.. I don't find very much unique about this building. Many elements were obviously replaced and redone over the years. There's thousands of buildings in Philadelphia that look real similar just falling over because no one values the land at all. I just don't think it's worthy

I respectfully disagree.
These are beautiful buildings (its 2 buildings) that add architectural uniqueness and integrity to the area. There are plenty of parking lots and less attractive buildings nearby that can be replaced for a high-rise (like the shitty building to the West).

But once these handsome buildings are done, they're gone... And one less unique Philadelphia corner. That building rendering could be in any basic city. I am pro-development, but not at the expense of perfectly fine handsome buildings, especially when there are a dozen parking lots within a 4 block radius of this corner.

[skyhigh07]

^^^ Agreed. They’re a handsome assemblage and give the area a sense of place, history and authenticity. Walking by, they also compliment the new building across the street quite nicely.

I’m sorry but I have to say the second rendering of the conceptual designs looks straight out of South Beach. Doesn’t seem to fit the area at all.

[bdurk]

This may be a hot take but I could totally see a supertall mixed-use building being Philly's next 1,000+ footer. I really think with the recent rise in taller residential towers that Philly is made for a couple more. Just imagine a John Hancock Center-esque skyscraper in Rittenhouse, that would be awesome.

Also side note, I for one enjoy the Billionaire's Row supertalls. Don't love how skinny they are but they really just make the skyline massive. I'm more worried about the cluster of office towers making the skyline ugly. If Tower Fifth, 175 Park, and 270 Park all go up I think they could ruin the skyline (Mainly Tower Fifth, I hate that thing)

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I respectfully disagree.
These are beautiful buildings (its 2 buildings) that add architectural uniqueness and integrity to the area. There are plenty of parking lots and less attractive buildings nearby that can be replaced for a high-rise (like the shitty building to the West).

I guess this is the one thing I can rationalize with: that in Logan Square specifically, there are not that many great examples of older architecture left. I can understand that from a neighborhood perspective, but when looking at the whole city, I don't think it's very special.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by bdurk

This may be a hot take but I could totally see a supertall mixed-use building being Philly's next 1,000+ footer. I really think with the recent rise in taller residential towers that Philly is made for a couple more. Just imagine a John Hancock Center-esque skyscraper in Rittenhouse, that would be awesome.

I still think there's a chance University City gets a crowning building in the 30th street district.

But in the mean time, outside of master planned developments, multiple things need to converge for a building that big: first an anchor company for the office portion, second a hotel brand looking to take space near cultural and business events, and thirdly, the right spot for it.

All signs point to the goddamn PECO parking lot

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I respectfully disagree.
These are beautiful buildings (its 2 buildings) that add architectural uniqueness and integrity to the area. There are plenty of parking lots and less attractive buildings nearby that can be replaced for a high-rise (like the shitty building to the West).

But once these handsome buildings are done, they're gone... And one less unique Philadelphia corner. That building rendering could be in any basic city. I am pro-development, but not that at the expense of perfectly fine handsome buildings, especially when there are a dozen parking lots within a 4 block radius of this corner.

+1. These buildings survived despite the odds and are a classic example of 19th century Philadelphia. Keep them. Right around the corner is the former Mace's crossing and while that building been altered, there aren't many 150+ year old buildings in the area - I'm fearful of the fate of that one as well.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I respectfully disagree.
These are beautiful buildings (its 2 buildings) that add architectural uniqueness and integrity to the area. There are plenty of parking lots and less attractive buildings nearby that can be replaced for a high-rise (like the shitty building to the West).

But once these handsome buildings are done, they're gone... And one less unique Philadelphia corner. That building rendering could be in any basic city. I am pro-development, but not at the expense of perfectly fine handsome buildings, especially when there are a dozen parking lots within a 4 block radius of this corner.

I agree of course, but it’s actually 3 buildings. The nomination doesn’t include a 4th older building in the block, 1708 Race St, which abuts the former United Way building. The latter is under different ownership and is actively rented as apartments.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

Originally Posted by jaysb

Dumb-ish question for the board.....I was driving around all of development in Northern Liberties on Tuesday and I got to thinking...we've all heard how antiquated our water/sewage systems are. We've gone from a population of 2MM->1.6MM but it certainly wasn't the density were are seeing being built around the Piazza etc. How are we adding so much density on antiquated infrastructure? Was this updated recently? Were they originally over-built to handle this? Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

Check out PWD Green City Clean Water https://water.phila.gov/green-city/ for information. PWD was mandated to reduce sewage discharges from the combined system into the rivers during rain events. Got permission to try various green stormwater infrastructure projects to reduce rainwater going into the system rather than terribly disruptive process of separating the systems. Additional benefit is lots of green spaces, trees, new school playgrounds, and other improvements. Other older cities are watching and hoping for success that will let them do the same.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I respectfully disagree.
These are beautiful buildings (its 2 buildings) that add architectural uniqueness and integrity to the area. There are plenty of parking lots and less attractive buildings nearby that can be replaced for a high-rise (like the shitty building to the West).

But once these handsome buildings are done, they're gone... And one less unique Philadelphia corner. That building rendering could be in any basic city. I am pro-development, but not at the expense of perfectly fine handsome buildings, especially when there are a dozen parking lots within a 4 block radius of this corner.

I agree that these buildings are standouts aesthetically. Ultimately I think the goal should be greater density here, but I don't think anything that has been proposed yet is a worthy replacement. There should be a level of historical protection that doesn't prohibit development but places some reasonable hurdles in terms of the quality and density of the building that will replace it. Partial demolitions that preserve the street facing facade could also be allowed for buildings like this.

There's nothing HISTORIC about buildings like these should guarantee that they get to stand forever or anything like that. But they shouldn't be allowed to be so easily tossed aside.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I agree that these buildings are standouts aesthetically. Ultimately I think the goal should be greater density here, but I don't think anything that has been proposed yet is a worthy replacement. There should be a level of historical protection that doesn't prohibit development but places some reasonable hurdles in terms of the quality and density of the building that will replace it. Partial demolitions that preserve the street facing facade could also be allowed for buildings like this.

There's nothing HISTORIC about buildings like these should guarantee that they get to stand forever or anything like that. But they shouldn't be allowed to be so easily tossed aside.

I agree with this. Also, the parking lot across the street is where 2 Cathederal Square will be built?

[SouthCentralPA]

Originally Posted by cardeza

PWD has one of the largest stormwater management implementation plans of any large city- it's why they are putting rain gardens and stormwater bumpouts all over the place to reduce the amount of rainwater going into the CSO around the city. PArts of the city built after WW2 do not have combined sewers, but the areas with the highest population density are on the combined system. From what I recall other cities such as DC that have similar problems have constructed massive tunnels to hold excess sewage from major storm events but Philadelphia didn't want to take that expensive and disruptive approach to reduce its sewage discharge into the river when the treatment capacity is overwhelmed during storms.

For sure. Philadelphia is one of the leaders in stormwater management and has a lot of innovative projects compared to other places in the state. I don't blame them for not constructing tunnels like DC. You shouldn't have discharges if you can remove the stormwater from the systems and doing that has many benefits besides just preventing CSOs. Curb bumpouts act as traffic calming and allow shorter unprotected road crossings for pedestrians. They also provide vegetation and greenery in neighborhoods and some of the plants can be quite pretty at certain times of the years. They also provide habitats for bugs and pollinators. So I think stormwater management is a better way to decrease CSOs than just creating tunnels to store sewage during rain events.