Was the 80s the peak of the suburban era and the nadir of cities in the US?

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by LA21st

That's my guess too. People here like actually going out to these stores etc.

I wondered how independent retail was surving on Ventura even during the height of covid and I guess they still had enough people walking in.

There were some that bit the dust, but not as bad as some cities. My wife, son and I just wanted to get out of the house yesterday after being couped up for the last month with some sort of flu virus. We took the streets through the valley and made a 1 1/2 hour slow trip to Old Town Pasadena to pick up my favorite Espresso beans from the Urth Cafe. We came back and took Ventura Blvd from the east valley to our place in the west valley. I can’t recall not one stretch that was dark lacking business. Where there was some closures during the pandemic, those empty stores have now been replaced with new ones. Ventura Blvd was pretty well lit up and very open.

[craigs]

Yeah, I cruised Ventura Blvd. on Wednesday evening for several miles on my way home from dinner (as a passenger) and it was full up. It's likely that there is some vacant storefront somewhere on that route, but I didn't notice a single one.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Harlem was a no-go zone.

I just don't think that young people have any concept as to how lawless so many areas of so many cities were. It was every man for himself. The worst places I ever encountered were The Bronx and New Orleans public housing.

The silver lining was that there was all of this cheap space to rent on the edges of those insane areas. Band practice spaces, art studios, etc. The culture of the United States was much more local. You had to know people who knew about the cool stuff. If you were a joke then you wouldn't be invited.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I first started exploring the South Bronx in the late 90's, and there was no widespread abandonment anymore. There were still scattered vacant lots all over the place, but the really devastated parts had been rebuilt by then. There certainly were no empty apartment blocks or anything; they had long since been renovated or demolished. I think the early 80's were the bottom, and things slowly turned around soon thereafter.

IAWTC. I don't think I've ever seen an abandoned building in the Bronx or anywhere else in NYC on the scale of the one pictured above in the past 20 years.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

IAWTC. I don't think I've ever seen an abandoned building in the Bronx or anywhere else in NYC on the scale of the one pictured above in the past 20 years.

I stayed in a youth hostel in 2000 just off Madison Square Park in Manhattan, and most of the big buildings in the area were vacant or nearly vacant. No, they weren't bombed out, but there weren't many street-level or upper tenants, and almost no pedestrian traffic. The Flatiron Building might have been completely vacant. I remember there being a cell phone ad in the pointy storefront, which did not have a store in it, because I stood there for a half hour waiting for people to meet. That's what you had to do...before cell phones. I took a photo of the storefront while I waited, having no idea what "Sprint PCS" was.

Imagine this being pretty desolate, with grime streaking down the sides of all of the buildings:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7412...7i16384!8i8192

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I stayed in a youth hostel in 2000 just off Madison Square Park in Manhattan, and most of the big buildings in the area were vacant or nearly vacant. No, they weren't bombed out, but there weren't many street-level or upper tenants, and almost no pedestrian traffic. The Flatiron Building might have been completely vacant. I remember there being a cell phone ad in the pointy storefront, which did not have a store in it, because I stood there for a half hour waiting for people to meet. That's what you had to do...before cell phones. I took a photo of the storefront while I waited, having no idea what "Sprint PCS" was.

Imagine this being pretty desolate, with grime streaking down the sides of all of the buildings:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7412...7i16384!8i8192

That area didn't have the big tech tenants it does now, but I don't know if it has ever had large scale vacancies. Pre-2008 that area was still very textiles oriented and looked more rundown than it does now, but it was still mostly occupied. The textiles companies got pushed out post-Financial Crisis as that area became the epicenter of "Silicon Alley".

The Flatiron Building probably hasn't ever been vacant except for maybe transition periods when an old tenant is moving out and a new one coming in.

[MolsonExport]

Eagle Ave. at Westchester Ave., Bronx, 1970



Honeywell at 178th St. S. Bronx, 1970



Cauldwell & Westchester Ave., Bronx, 1970



Hoe Avenue at 172nd St., Bronx, 1970



Bruckner Blvd., Bronx, 1970



source: https://flashbak.com/a-visual-tour-o...n-1970-454076/

[MolsonExport]

cool way to explore the decrepitude of 1980s South Bronx: https://janeswalknyc.mas.org/stories/TabvwNgatwA

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I stayed in a youth hostel in 2000 just off Madison Square Park in Manhattan, and most of the big buildings in the area were vacant or nearly vacant. No, they weren't bombed out, but there weren't many street-level or upper tenants, and almost no pedestrian traffic. The Flatiron Building might have been completely vacant. I remember there being a cell phone ad in the pointy storefront, which did not have a store in it, because I stood there for a half hour waiting for people to meet. That's what you had to do...before cell phones. I took a photo of the storefront while I waited, having no idea what "Sprint PCS" was.

Imagine this being pretty desolate, with grime streaking down the sides of all of the buildings:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7412...7i16384!8i8192

Hmm, I think you have your location or years wrong.

I don't think there was any period in modern history where the Madison Square Park area was vacant. Certainly not in 2000, when it was pretty fancy.

It was probably semi-grimy in the 1970's and 80's, but no way in 2000. And never vacant. My first job out of college was at 11 Madison, which is right on the park. It was a very nice area in 2000, with big corporate tenants in the neighborhood, including one of the world's largest investment banks.

Very good neighborhood restaurant scene, actually better than now. Eleven Madison Park and Tabla, two of the most renowned restaurants in the world, were right on the park. Neighborhood residences were extremely expensive, and only affordable to higher-ups.

The Flatiron Building wasn't vacant. I passed by it every day. It had normal upscale Manhattan retail. Some British makeup store. Jo Malone, I think?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That area didn't have the big tech tenants it does now, but I don't know if it has ever had large scale vacancies. Pre-2008 that area was still very textiles oriented and looked more rundown than it does now, but it was still mostly occupied. The textiles companies got pushed out post-Financial Crisis as that area became the epicenter of "Silicon Alley".

The Flatiron Building probably hasn't ever been vacant except for maybe transition periods when an old tenant is moving out and a new one coming in.

Kinda, yeah. The textiles area was to the north & west of the park. That area was gritty and not upscale. But very busy and never vacant. Along Broadway was really gritty for a few blocks, where you had lots of bootleg vendors.

But the immediate Madison Square Park area was downright fancy when I worked there, from 1999 through 2003. It was pretty bro-oriented given that Credit Suisse (then Credit Suisse First Boston) had like 5,000 employees in two towers right on the park. Across the park was the Toy Building (the world's largest collection of toy companies) and I think the Flatiron Building office space was occupied by a German publishing firm.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Hmm, I think you have your location or years wrong.

I don't think there was any period in modern history where the Madison Square Park area was vacant. Certainly not in 2000, when it was pretty fancy.

It was probably semi-grimy in the 1970's and 80's, but no way in 2000. And never vacant. My first job out of college was at 11 Madison, which is right on the park. It was a very nice area in 2000, with big corporate tenants in the neighborhood, including one of the world's largest investment banks.

Very good neighborhood restaurant scene, actually better than now. Eleven Madison Park and Tabla, two of the most renowned restaurants in the world, were right on the park. Neighborhood residences were extremely expensive, and only affordable to higher-ups.

The Flatiron Building wasn't vacant. I passed by it every day. It had normal upscale Manhattan retail. Some British makeup store. Jo Malone, I think?

I forgot that Charles Schwab was over there. Wasn't there another bank over there too? I'm rarely on the east side of Madison Square Park anymore so I forgot what all used to be over there.

Edit: Just saw your reply above. I was thinking of Credit Suisse.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I forgot that Charles Schwab was over there. Wasn't there another bank over there too? I'm rarely on the east side of Madison Square Park anymore so I forgot what all used to be over there.

Edit: Just saw your reply above. I was thinking of Credit Suisse.

Yeah, I worked for Credit Suisse, at 11 Madison. That building was great. CS had the entire 11 Madison (which is a massive tower, with huge, elaborate subbasement levels) and most of 1 Madison (which is now being redeveloped into a new tower).

[TempleGuy1000]

The bronx on fire always catches the imagination of people and it is truly extraordinary given how dense the urban build was vs. most of the rest of the US but I actually find Chicago/Philly/Detroit to be much sadder stories. Land values/demand, whatever it was in NYC, allowed old buildings to be removed then subsequently replaced in a few years time. Other places cleared blocks and then.. nothing happened except for the proliferation of urban prairies. Instead of new residents moving into new structures 'lifting up' the rest of the neighborhood, a lot of the time, the gangs and drug trade just moved from the tore down blocks into other people's neighborhoods like a disease.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, I worked for Credit Suisse, at 11 Madison. That building was great. CS had the entire 11 Madison (which is a massive tower, with huge, elaborate subbasement levels) and most of 1 Madison (which is now being redeveloped into a new tower).

Yeah, the memories are coming back now. I used to work next to Grand Central in the 00s and I'd sometimes walk down Madison Ave to MSP during my lunch hour when it was warm. There was a popular food cart or truck around there that I'd sometimes stop at but I can't remember what it served.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I stayed in a youth hostel in 2000 just off Madison Square Park in Manhattan, and most of the big buildings in the area were vacant or nearly vacant. No, they weren't bombed out, but there weren't many street-level or upper tenants, and almost no pedestrian traffic. The Flatiron Building might have been completely vacant. I remember there being a cell phone ad in the pointy storefront, which did not have a store in it, because I stood there for a half hour waiting for people to meet. That's what you had to do...before cell phones. I took a photo of the storefront while I waited, having no idea what "Sprint PCS" was.

Imagine this being pretty desolate, with grime streaking down the sides of all of the buildings:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7412...7i16384!8i8192

The changes to the Madison Square area in the past 25 years are quite amazing. It used to be a complete ghost town after dark. There was no luxury housing. The park itself was not used much except for the brown bag lunch crowd and the homeless. The Prince George Hotel (once upon a time a large and respectable business hotel http://www.princegeorgeballroom.org/aboutpgbmomento) on E 28th was considered to be the most dangerous welfare hotel in Manhattan. The area had been home to wholesale showrooms for the giftware industry and the Christmas decoration industry. Buyers from stores all over the country used to come to the area. 225 Fifth Ave, overlooking Madison Square, was the prestige home to the wholesale china, glass, and gift-ware businesses. 225 Fifth is now home to very pricey and spacious condos. My uncle had a ground floor and basement showroom at 225 Fifth for a number of years. I used to work there in the summertime, often taking my lunch in a nearly deserted Madison Square Park or, as a treat, in the coffee shop of 225 Fifth, where I learned to love the sliced London Broil sandwich served on French bread. That was in the late 1960s. Most of the wholesale trades had left the area by the mid 1980s. I think one of the first signs of trendiness in the area was the M.K. Club in 1988. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/07/g...pen-house.html A friend of mine was briefly one of the managers of M.K. I was definitely not rich enough, hip enough, or young enough to feel at home there, but I did visit my friend at the M.K. one night before opening. General Worth's tomb was located just outside, catty corner to the Flatiron Building. My hometown in Texas is named after good ol' General Worth. I believe he was a Mexican War hero.

[hughfb3]

Also, of curiosity... with a city like Los Angeles, what used to be the suburbs are now just as dense and central to much of the region as the traditional center. West LA could be considered a regional center... In fact, the entire part of Los Angeles from the 101/5 to the ocean could be considered the Urban Core.

How many of these cities have evolved and expanded past the traditional urban core like what sunbelt LA is doing? With that, Malls in the suburbs have been turning into Supermalls with consolidation. We could say that the Westside Pavilion 3 story mall folded into the ever expanding Westfield Century City turning its old edifice into one of the largest new office spaces in LA... and Woodland Hills' Westfield Promenade mall coalesced with gargantuan Topanga & The Village, creating further opportunity for the neighborhood to densify.

Even though Woodland Hills is one of the most distal neighborhoods in the city of Los Angeles, it is building and planning for a future of it being a solid urban core.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by austlar1

It used to be a complete ghost town after dark. There was no luxury housing.

I believe that there was a bar with a small blue neon sign in its window in one of these buildings:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7409...7i16384!8i8192

I remember walking out of that place not knowing what we were going to do next and somebody recognized a guy named Speed from the movie The Cruise walking down the street and we ended up hanging out with him for about two hours somewhere else. This guy: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0150230/

General Worth's tomb was located just outside, catty corner to the Flatiron Building. My hometown in Texas is named after good ol' General Worth. I believe he was a Mexican War hero.

Yes - the Mexican-American War - kind of like the War of 1812, except we won.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

Also, of curiosity... with a city like Los Angeles, what used to be the suburbs are now just as dense and central to much of the region as the traditional center. West LA could be considered a regional center... In fact, the entire part of Los Angeles from the 101/5 to the ocean could be considered the Urban Core.

How many of these cities have evolved and expanded past the traditional urban core like what sunbelt LA is doing? With that, Malls in the suburbs have been turning into Supermalls with consolidation. We could say that the Westside Pavilion 3 story mall folded into the ever expanding Westfield Century City turning its old edifice into one of the largest new office spaces in LA... and Woodland Hills' Westfield Promenade mall coalesced with gargantuan Topanga & The Village, creating further opportunity for the neighborhood to densify.

Even though Woodland Hills is one of the most distal neighborhoods in the city of Los Angeles, it is building and planning for a future of it being a solid urban core.

San Jose/Silicon Valley. There was a small historic downtown (skyline still remains short due to the airport location but it's growing in density) but otherwise it was mostly farmland and orchards. Then it became a hub for aerospace with Moffett Field and Lockheed, and then of course, tech, with computers, semiconductors, software, the internet, and now the metaverse. Together, with SF, you've got this two headed economic monster which probably isn't seen elsewhere in the US.

Silicon Valley is continuing to expand with new recently built/expanded HQs from Meta, Apple, Google, Adobe, with more future expansions in downtown SJ (Google), as well as HSR and BART extension. With that growth there are now more cultural attractions, with the 49ers moving to Levi Stadium as well. Westfield Valley Fair is also doing well with the highest sales volume in the state.

Westfield Valley Fair’s 10-figure valuation is powered by retail sales of more than $1,400 per square foot annually, among the highest in the country, according to owner Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield. Construction is ongoing on a $1.1 billion expansion, which will boost the retail space from 1.5 million to 2.2 million square feet, adding around 100 stores.

Both Santana Row and Valley Fair have benefited from Silicon Valley’s wealth and spending power, and a convenient location next to two major highways, Interstates 880 and 280, its owners say. That’s made them successful despite retail headwinds. Both properties have retail occupancy rates above 95%, an enviable rate in an industry beset by bankruptcies.

“Malls are really leading the retail mess,” said Santa Clara County Assessor Larry Stone. But Silicon Valley is an exception, he said.

The shopping centers are also both evolving by adding more restaurants, gyms and entertainment-focused tenants. Offering experiences and spaces for socializing is critical in the quickly changing world of retail, said Scot Vallee, Westfield’s vice president of development.

“People want to do things when they’re not at work. They don’t want to work at a computer all day and then go home and sit and stare at a computer,” he said.

The Void, a virtual reality entertainment center, will open soon at Valley Fair, and a ShowPlace Icon movie theater opened in February. More fitness and health tenants are on the way in Valley Fair’s new wing, which is set to open next year.

At the same time, Westfield’s largest tenants, Nordstrom and Macy’s, invested in renovations in the past two years, and Bloomingdale’s is building a new flagship store. It’s a contrast to other locations such as San Francisco’s Union Square, where Macy’s has downsized. Luxury jewelry and apparel sales have also been strong, but aren’t growing as quickly as food and entertainment, said Vallee.

In a sign of the times, Santana Row has multiple online retailers that have expanded to physical outposts: Amazon Books, Warby Parker and Sugarfina.

Santana Row’s owner, Federal Realty Investment Trust, cites the complex’s 700,000 square feet of office space, as well as hundreds of housing units, as key parts of a successful mixed-use economic engine.

“The office users just love being here. It’s a huge competitive advantage,” said Jan Sweetnam, Western region chief operating officer at Federal Realty Investment Trust. “We’re really a go-to place to go and hang out.”

Three new offices are under construction, including a new office for data-software company Splunk, which has been expanding in San Francisco and San Jose.

Santana Row’s proximity to Valley Fair has also helped drive foot traffic to both properties.

“I think we work well together, and we benefit each other,” said Jeff Berkes, Federal Realty’s West Coast president. “Other than San Francisco, I don’t know where else you have this kind of strength (in the Bay Area), and it’s all walkable.”

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...t-14396664.php

[Crawford]

Santana Row/Valley Fair are basically the "downtown" for SV. People still congregate, and regionally dominant malls still thrive.

They're still malls, though. No substitute for organic urban growth.

Also, totally anecdotal, but I believe immigrants and other newcomers haven't discarded malls like most longtime Americans. You see malls perform best when there are lots of non-natives and intl. visitors (NYC, Miami, LA, Bay Area). The really "All American" places with purely local demand (Portland, St. Louis, Cincy) are where malls really seem to struggle. Outside of the U.S. malls are still generally "cool" and signal upward mobility, youth and aspiration.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Ferris Buellers Day Off was one of the most pivotal 80s movies that shifted the way American cinema presented big city urbanism. It invited an entire generation of bored white suburban teenagers (like me) to view "the city" as a big giant amusement park full of fun, excitement, and hijinks.

When I was a kid, "Adventures in Babysitting" made me want to visit Chicago so bad.