Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity - Page 175

MolsonExport · #**3481** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 4:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45

On my dad's side, I have a bit of quasi-Belgian ancestry. it.

My Mom's father was from Blankenberge sur Mer, just north of Brugge (aka, Bruges) in Flanders. Although Flemish, growing up the language at home wsa resolutely French (his father was Mayor, and owner of several hotels, and he thought Flemish was a dying vernacular). He ended up speaking 5 languages fluently (Flemish, French, German, Italian, and later, English).

lio45 · #**3482** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 4:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

My Mom's father was from Blankenberge sur Mer, just north of Brugge (aka, Bruges) in Flanders. Although Flemish, growing up the language at home wsa resolutely French (his father was Mayor, and owner of several hotels, and he thought Flemish was a dying vernacular). He ended up speaking 5 languages fluently (Flemish, French, German, Italian, and later, English).

One thing that I've always found... tricky, and fascinating at the same time, is the somewhat paradoxical dichotomy between how at the individual level, an extra language is advantageous, while at the collective level, the effect can instead be harmful.

If every Québécois was suddenly fluent in English... as Pariseau myopically wished for... then the medium-term result would be that Quebec as we know it would cease to exist.

Similarly, your maternal grandfather contributed to harming Flemish language/culture locally, by bettering himself in a way no one can fault him for.

My fluency in English harms Quebec too, in various ways. Not least being that I can now access opportunities outside its borders, and invest my resources accordingly. In this way, I'm almost perfectly analogous to your grandfather (and don't feel bad for being "part of the problem"; I'll think of myself first, sorry.)

Really interesting info re: your Flemish grandfather. Was he the one who made the move across the Atlantic?

MolsonExport · #**3483** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 4:37 PM**

^family wealth was completely wiped out by WW2 (my Flemish great grandfather owned a string of resort hotels in Europe). As one of the prominent citizens of Belgium, with the ear of the King, he was resolutely anti-Nazi. When the Germans invaded, someone in the police came around to his office, and showed him a list of people (intelligentsia,etc.) that were deemed enemies of the people by the Nazi authorities, and who were to be immediately rounded up and sent to concentration camps. He escaped with his wife and children, and almost none of his (what was then) considerable wealth.

They escaped on a small boat to England, where my great grandfather immediately went to work in the hospitality business (my grandfather and all his male siblings became soldiers, aviators and sailors, fighting for Britain/Free Belgium (two ended up being killed in action, one in a plane that was shooting down German bombers). Early in the war, while on furlough, my grandfather was waiting tables at the English hotel that my great grandfather was managing...a wealthy English family was taking a meal, and enjoying the apparently excellent service provided by the continental waiter. He caught the eye of one of the young ladies, who thought him dashing. My grandmother.

After the war, with family wealth on both sides greatly depleted, my maternal grandparents decided to emigrate to Canada, choosing between Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. Montreal won (and besides, my grandfather's french was impeccable). He later brought over most of his siblings. The last died in Montreal a few years ago, aged 103 (and a half).

There are a ton of great stories, such as how my grandfather waited on Churchill, and before the war, coming into direct contact with Goebbels, Goering, and other infamous Nazis that were staying at the family's hotels. All confiscated by the Nazis upon the occupation of Western Europe (hotels in Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, and Italy).

MonctonRad · #**3484** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 4:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

absolutely, newcomers to Quebec must learn French. But fer crissakes, take it easy on them, and give them some time. Ostracizing them only reinforces the view that they are not a part of the family of peoples that make up modern Quebec. And stop pillorying English speakers. It is not our fault that the global language has become English, which is the the result of the success of British colonialism (not the same as praising it), and moreover, America's size and hegemony. Anglo Quebeckers are a very important part of Quebec and its history. Especially with respect to Montreal, my beloved hometown.

Well put. A little sympathy and compassion goes a long way.

A tough, no nonsense, hard handed approach on the other hand can be (mis) interpreted as "we don't want your kind here." This can make the difference between a policy appearing as being totalitarian and racist, or, not.

Acajack · #**3485** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 9:15 PM**

Kateri Champagne-Jourdain, the first-ever female Indigenous member of the Quebec legislature, made her oath in Innu today, as the CAQ rep for the north shore riding of Duplessis.

MolsonExport · #**3486** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 9:20 PM**

hopefully in making the oath in Innu (rather than the language of Molière), she is not passively being an enemy of Quebec.

Acajack · #**3487** Posted **Oct 18, 2022, 9:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

hopefully in making the oath in Innu (rather than the language of Molière), she is not passively being an enemy of Quebec.

François Legault didn't seem to think so, as he was beaming standing behind her.

MonctonRad · #**3488** Posted **Oct 19, 2022, 11:18 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

François Legault didn't seem to think so, as he was beaming standing behind her.

And if she had made her oath in English, would Legault have been beaming (or scowling)???

Acajack · #**3489** Posted **Oct 19, 2022, 11:27 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And if she had made her oath in English, would Legault have been beaming (or scowling)???

Probably not. If only because Legault keeps things in his caucus on a tight leash and something like that would have been cleared with him first.

But getting back to Lio's point: Innu is not an existential threat in Quebec. English is. It's pointless to equate the two.

MonctonRad · #**3490** Posted **Oct 19, 2022, 11:39 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Innu is not an existential threat in Quebec. English is. It's pointless to equate the two.

I fail to see how the English language population of Quebec (maybe 10% of the total population, and highly concentrated in Montreal) constitutes an "existential" threat to the francophone majority.

Certainly not to the point where it has to be squashed like a bug...........

Acajack · #**3491** Posted **Oct 19, 2022, 11:41 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I fail to see how the English language population of Quebec (maybe 10% of the total population, and highly concentrated in Montreal) constitutes an "existential" threat to the francophone majority.

Certainly not to the point where it has to be squashed like a bug...........

Thankfully it's not in any way being squashed like a bug!

MolsonExport · #**3492** Posted **Oct 19, 2022, 3:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thankfully it's not in any way being squashed like a bug!

Except at Korean restaurants in QC.

ToxiK · #**3493** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 4:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I fail to see how the English language population of Quebec (maybe 10% of the total population, and highly concentrated in Montreal) constitutes an "existential" threat to the francophone majority.

Certainly not to the point where it has to be squashed like a bug...........

The hundreds of millions of English speakers in North America are the existential threats for French in Québec.

ToxiK · #**3494** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 4:43 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Except at Korean restaurants in QC.

If you don't adapt to your market, you deserve to be squashed by the competition.

1overcosc · #**3495** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 4:54 AM**

Surprised this hasn't been posted here yet.

The newly elected QS and PQ MNAs are pulling a Sinn Fein and refusing to say the oath to the King, meaning they cannot take their seats in the National Assembly.

Its my understanding that the requirement for elected members to say the oath to the crown is part of the 1867 Constitution, so they won't be able to get around this requirement.

I get what they're trying to say but effectively disclaiming election is a slap in the face to the voters - by not joining the Assembly, those voters are literally unrepresented.

ToxiK · #**3496** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 5:39 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Surprised this hasn't been posted here yet.

The newly elected QS and PQ MNAs are pulling a Sinn Fein and refusing to say the oath to the King, meaning they cannot take their seats in the National Assembly.

Its my understanding that the requirement for elected members to say the oath to the crown is part of the 1867 Constitution, so they won't be able to get around this requirement.

I get what they're trying to say but effectively disclaiming election is a slap in the face to the voters - by not joining the Assembly, those voters are literally unrepresented.

I am sure the PQ voters feel represented by a party that refuses to swear an oath to the king, wether their MNAs are allowed in the National Asssembly or not.

harls · #**3497** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 5:51 AM**

Lio and Molson seem to be friends now... is that right?

1overcosc · #**3498** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 5:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I am sure the PQ voters feel represented by a party that refuses to swear an oath to the king, wether their MNAs are allowed in the National Asssembly or not.

Not being allowed to take their seats in the Assembly means the MNAs, quite literally, can't do anything. They can't vote, can't be part of any committees, can't propose any motions, and can't participate in any debates.

Its the same thing as not having an MNA at all.

If the PQ or QS had won a majority government, and didn't change their stance on this, they'd literally be unable to form government.

ToxiK · #**3499** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 9:19 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Not being allowed to take their seats in the Assembly means the MNAs, quite literally, can't do anything. They can't vote, can't be part of any committees, can't propose any motions, and can't participate in any debates.

Its the same thing as not having an MNA at all.

If the PQ or QS had won a majority government, and didn't change their stance on this, they'd literally be unable to form government.

It is not the same thing as having no MNAs, they represent their constituent's wish to abolish this obsolete oath. The PQ and Québec Solidaire are not in power, in fact they are not even "official" parties, so they wont be missing that much. I don't see the MNAs staying on the sideline forever, they will either wait until a new law is passed that removes the oath or (if it takes too long) they'll take the oath to be able to vote against it later on.

Acajack · #**3500** Posted **Oct 20, 2022, 9:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by harls

Lio and Molson seem to be friends now... is that right?

We are all friends on here, right?