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  #361  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
The round skylights above the central part would have been a good keeper, if nothing else. Would complicate the build, but how nice would it be to have an interior courtyard amidst the towers underneath that structure?
instead in 50 years hamilton will look like ikea designed the entire city.
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  #362  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 6:26 PM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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This strikes me as a project that needs a bit of that excessive urban design input from the city more than any other. I’d prefer if they broke the height limit and built two 50ish storey towers and a mid rise street wall with retail fronting onto York/James.
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  #363  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 7:02 PM
Crapht Crapht is offline
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Originally Posted by mikevbar1 View Post
This strikes me as a project that needs a bit of that excessive urban design input from the city more than any other. I’d prefer if they broke the height limit and built two 50ish storey towers and a mid rise street wall with retail fronting onto York/James.
That is exactly what I would prefer. At least one of those towers should be something exceptional. There should be lots of room for affordable housing included. The property is giant. I don’t mind some parts of the proposal but it seems like a missed opportunity.
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  #364  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 8:15 PM
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That is exactly what I would prefer. At least one of those towers should be something exceptional. There should be lots of room for affordable housing included. The property is giant. I don’t mind some parts of the proposal but it seems like a missed opportunity.
Totally agree- this is THE core - it should be something exceptional.
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  #365  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 8:30 PM
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Are they still in "final negotiations"? Maybe they'll make some smart changes, like those just mentioned. We haven't seen anything new since that large-podium render, have we?

July 2020, via The Public Record:


https://www.thepublicrecord.ca/2022/06/b...milton-city-centre-planning-application/
https://www.thepublicrecord.ca/2022/07/b...-on-city-centre-development-application/
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  #366  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 8:39 PM
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that could backfire, it could be worse changes.. but yeah iirc they were forced to make some changes to make it look.. bett..er...
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  #367  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 9:50 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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This are not the up to date plans. They are back in the thread.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9203748&postcount=250
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  #368  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
some more renderings from Harlo Capital's (The developer) website:

https://www.harlocapital.com/project/77-james/





















The fact that they have broken down the block and provided a pedestrian extension if King William Street looks incredible, but it needs work on material selection still I think..

I'm also left wondering how they are providing parking now. Before they had a large above grade garage in the middle of the block, it looks like that has now been nixed and replaced with the courtyard. Where did the parking go? Underground? Or did they just kill most of it (Hopefully!)?
reposted for imagery

I feel the podium level (red brick) needs to be altered to match the heritage across the street, aka more stone pediments and nicer cornices - the grey stone on the first floor is ok, and I like the sash style windows - the rest above is generic and can't be changed much I suppose, I like the ceiling in the bridge part and what looks like a structural element they disguised as an art piece.

The main floor def looks better than the wtfery they originally proposed.

Some massive big build trees in the interior courtyard could really be a statement piece.

Last edited by Chronamut; Oct 18, 2022 at 10:36 PM.
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  #369  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2022, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRitsman View Post
This are not the up to date plans. They are back in the thread.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9203748&postcount=250
Thanks! I forgot about those. The source link no longer works though. I wonder if further changes have been made to the plan.
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  #370  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2022, 2:47 AM
HamiltonBoyInToronto HamiltonBoyInToronto is offline
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Just feels like a mall conversion off the hwy in suburbia...at least one tower should be thr city's new tallest and should have anything but a flat roof that is lit at night
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  #371  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2022, 5:56 PM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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Just feels like a mall conversion off the hwy in suburbia...at least one tower should be thr city's new tallest and should have anything but a flat roof that is lit at night
I get the impression this is how developers legitimately feel. Hamilton is lumped into the rest of the 905 and unless we take action our developments will mirror that.

This scheme is partly a consequence of the city's desperation for development. While I understand this goal, we are now in a much better position to work with developers to make a better city instead of simply working to get development at all. On smaller, less prominent sites I think that it can be forgiven, but this is where a former city hall once was, occupying a large retail site in the core of the city. I do think that if there are any planners working at city hall at all, they will have negotiated successfully for a better outcome. Maybe not more height, but perhaps a better arrangement of density.

My idea of a 'better arrangement' does involve more height. I would take inspiration from Transit City and M1/M2. They are tall, dense, and use cost-effective floorplates, which we encourage. This leaves plenty of room at the base to do more interesting things in terms of the at-grade experience. It would ironically make this feel less imposing. Like Mississauga, it might also make us reconsider the height limit-- but only for exceptional cases where significant density is planned anyway, like here.

I would also consider full integration with Jackson Square and especially the pavilion above, not necessarily for the connectivity benefits but to stimulate some activity from the lessors. Either it can be an opportunity to reactivate the disused public space above (ice rink or concert venue anyone?) or prompt the lessors to say 'no' to integration, and perhaps give us a better idea of what they might be intending to do going forward.
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  #372  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2022, 7:14 PM
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Not sure why there are so many complaints here. the development isn't a looker, but Hamilton is challenging to work in from that end given the low condo and rent prices that don't give a lot of money for nice looking projects.

This one with the revised design is full of nice mini-retail units at grade which should make it an excellent hub of activity within the core, with intimate pedestrian only spaces and cars relegated to the streets and to the underground parking garage. Generally it's a great design from a planning perspective, IMO.

The height thing we all know is the city's problem with them not wanting anything taller than the escarpment.

Jackson Square has already said "no' to integration here. It's not happening.
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  #373  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2022, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Not sure why there are so many complaints here. the development isn't a looker, but Hamilton is challenging to work in from that end given the low condo and rent prices that don't give a lot of money for nice looking projects.

This one with the revised design is full of nice mini-retail units at grade which should make it an excellent hub of activity within the core, with intimate pedestrian only spaces and cars relegated to the streets and to the underground parking garage. Generally it's a great design from a planning perspective, IMO.

The height thing we all know is the city's problem with them not wanting anything taller than the escarpment.

Jackson Square has already said "no' to integration here. It's not happening.
Exactly. of course more height improves the proforma and allows for even better design, but Hamilton will die on that sword and to date no developer has been willing to take that challenge head on (a few minor exceptions that side stepped the limit). Until city staff admit the height limit has consequences these are the compromises that need to be made. Overall this development is a vast improvement over the current use and even the original proposal.
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  #374  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2022, 8:54 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Originally Posted by ccheck7 View Post
Exactly. of course more height improves the proforma and allows for even better design, but Hamilton will die on that sword and to date no developer has been willing to take that challenge head on (a few minor exceptions that side stepped the limit). Until city staff admit the height limit has consequences these are the compromises that need to be made. Overall this development is a vast improvement over the current use and even the original proposal.
I agree that the design is acceptable, and don't agree that additional height is required to look decent. KiWi looks good, and plenty of projects in other cities have great design while being much shorter. Halifax, Seattle, Toronto, Ottawa all have nicer designs. It has a lot more to do with what people will accept here and the overall sale price of condos compared to land purchase cost.
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  #375  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2022, 9:24 PM
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Exactly. of course more height improves the proforma and allows for even better design
On the other hand, it's more expensive to go taller as well. More elevators, stronger and deeper foundation, more complexity in engineering the utilities, designing for wind becomes more of a factor, etc.

I don't mind the newer design for the towers, but I really like what they plan for the podium and pedestrian spaces. The two tones of brick look nice (even if it's just going to be paneling) and use of wood beams adds warmth. From entry level, externally and along the internal passageways and courtyard spaces, I think this will be a real winner. Hopefully those things have not changed.
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  #376  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 12:15 AM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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On the other hand, it's more expensive to go taller as well. More elevators, stronger and deeper foundation, more complexity in engineering the utilities, designing for wind becomes more of a factor, etc.

I don't mind the newer design for the towers, but I really like what they plan for the podium and pedestrian spaces. The two tones of brick look nice (even if it's just going to be paneling) and use of wood beams adds warmth. From entry level, externally and along the internal passageways and courtyard spaces, I think this will be a real winner. Hopefully those things have not changed.
I recognize that additional height is usually correlated to cost, but my idea of consolidation would entail going from 30 to 50 storeys, which Isn't as cost-prohibitive. It may be if we are/were talking about the heights of towers I initially referenced (60-70st) but I should have clarified, I did not mean to imply such size.

I will say I do not want to jab this project or say that its 'bad'; The current plan is acceptable, especially on the ground level after seeing the pavilions and public spaces. What I do hope for is that the city and developers treat this site with care, and focus on the execution. This is no small plot of land, and if alterations can be made to improve it with little additional cost, then we should consider those options. It is partly the goal of the planning department to work with developers to provide better outcomes; rearranging a site, especially one as large as this, is not unheard of. Consolidating towers may be less common, but Isn't necessary anyway, just a bit of idealism on my end. I do hope that whatever rendition of this project is built, it maximizes the potential of this site.
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  #377  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 1:28 AM
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Some variation in tower heights would be welcome. Instead of 3 at 30 floors, what about a 35, a 32, and a 26 to go with the 24-storey "little guy"? Or go taller with two buildings, and have a couple of 12 to 16 floor mid-rises on the site?

I don't worry about Hamilton having a table-top skyline, though I'm definitely not in favour of the height limit. The downtown not being completely flat helps. TV City will look huge just based on it being along the crest of the sandbar ridge that runs west of the core. We already see this with Platinum looking much taller than its size because of where it is situated.

And there are lots of places for future "signature" towers that exceed the escarpment elevation planning ideal. For those I expect the city to push for unique and quality architecture.

Regardless, this development -- if it ends up looking like those renders illustrate -- will interact with James and York MUCH better than the City Centre does. And it will be a boon for the shops and restaurants along James, King William, King, Jackson Square, and beyond.
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  #378  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 1:43 AM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
Some variation in tower heights would be welcome. Instead of 3 at 30 floors, what about a 35, a 32, and a 26 to go with the 24-storey "little guy"

I don't worry about Hamilton having a table-top skyline, though I'm definitely not in favour of the height limit. The downtown not being completely flat helps. TV City will look huge just based on it being along the crest of the sandbar ridge that runs west of the core. We already see this with Platinum looking much taller than its size because of where it is situated.

And there are lots of places for future "signature" towers that exceed the escarpment elevation planning ideal.
Absolutely agree- it's actually very surprising just how many lots still sit without proposals, especially right at the core. In the 'financial district' you can still find parking between all the bank towers, and east of James there are more lots than buildings (when downtown). A whole new city can be borne on these.
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  #379  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 1:59 AM
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Absolutely agree- it's actually very surprising just how many lots still sit without proposals, especially right at the core. In the 'financial district' you can still find parking between all the bank towers, and east of James there are more lots than buildings (when downtown). A whole new city can be borne on these.
That gap on James between Commerce Place and the Pigott is the ABSOLUTE WORST example, to me. Lots of other bad ones, but that should have been developed 20 years ago, regardless of downtown's status at the time.
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  #380  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2022, 6:57 PM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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That gap on James between Commerce Place and the Pigott is the ABSOLUTE WORST example, to me. Lots of other bad ones, but that should have been developed 20 years ago, regardless of downtown's status at the time.
It's quite indicative of where the city is at nowadays. I would be partial to holding off on Its development (and similar lots that are in the absolute core of the city) if we can prioritize them to be commercial/office buildings, even if they are somewhat short. Allowing the historic business centre to becoming primarily residential is something that symbolically rubs me the wrong way, even if I know it is inevitable.

This is getting off-topic, but I do have a general question for others. With Hamilton being on the cusp of having two regional-scale industrial areas in the coming decade (AEGD & the Stelco lands redevelopment), could there be a case for businesses to choose to locate downtown once more?
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