PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by McBane

Not only the closet space but the bathroom situations in older homes suck. Our airlite had no bathroom on the first floor (and neither do many older homes). Doesn't mean you can't add one but in a tight 1100 sf rowhome, there's not really space. And upstairs? No master bath, just a tiny shared bathroom with very little countertop space and if you have kids, it's not ideal.

And it's not as if a first floor bathroom and a master bathroom are ostentatious luxuries for the 1%. Pretty much every home built after the 1970's have these features, even modest townhomes.

This is another reason why middle class families in Philly have left. The housing is simply inadequate especially when larger suburban homes with better schools can be attained with middle class salaries. What was fine for the middle class in the 1950's is no longer adequate today.

Some of the older larger homes (like what you may find in Spruce Hill) can be retrofitted because they're big enough to start with and within neighborhoods where that kind of investment makes financial sense. And even still, you have to be a little more than just middle class to do this or afford a remodeled Victorian.

agreed, we did a full gut of a 70s built house. It was a lot of work because everything was compartmentazed back then but at least they had the bones where we did not have to plumb for a main floor bathroom etc. Some of those older homes are great but require a loooot of updating, 1 bathroom in a 3 br house is just not practical these days for ppl with options.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by McBane

I've said this before and I'll repeat it here: There's not enough neighborhoods in Philly that can cater to the average middle class family. Homes in and around Center City are super expensive and then you get into the outer neighborhoods where the homes are cheap but old and tiny. Relative to the endless rows of airlites and older rowhomes, the small pockets of decently sized modern-ish homes in the far northeast and pockets of northwest is small.

It's sad but the housing stock is there, the neighborhoods quality of life just isn't. Wynnefield, Overbrook Farms, Germantown, Oxford Circle and Tacony are a few that come to mind. They have awesome detached single family homes. Besides Chestnut Hill and west Mt. Airy, Wynnfield and Overbrook Farms might have the coolest non rowhome housing stock in the city.

Wynnfield: https://goo.gl/maps/Ae87L5UeEhESqJWB8
Overbrook Farms: https://goo.gl/maps/ZyEQPRoHQE1BZ6yCA
Oxford Circle: https://goo.gl/maps/S9SsLo5cEh4zjrT18
Germantown: https://goo.gl/maps/QaVZmbnQXSpxUAaLA
Tacony: https://goo.gl/maps/j4cLohGmAFFGt3u1A

Chestnut Hill, west Mt. Airy, Roxborough, Andorra and some of East Falls come to mind for other single family detached homes.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by McBane

Not only the closet space but the bathroom situations in older homes suck. Our airlite had no bathroom on the first floor (and neither do many older homes). Doesn't mean you can't add one but in a tight 1100 sf rowhome, there's not really space. And upstairs? No master bath, just a tiny shared bathroom with very little countertop space and if you have kids, it's not ideal.

And it's not as if a first floor bathroom and a master bathroom are ostentatious luxuries for the 1%. Pretty much every home built after the 1970's have these features, even modest townhomes. Homes with master bathrooms and first floor bathrooms (not to mention off-street parking, central air, bedrooms bigger than shoeboxes, etc.) are all very much attainable on a middle class salary. It's not as if one has to make compromises to afford such a home.

Some of the older larger homes (like what you may find in Spruce Hill) can be retrofitted because they're big enough to start with and within neighborhoods where that kind of investment makes financial sense. And even still, you have to be a little more than just middle class to do this or afford a remodeled Victorian.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it here: There's not enough neighborhoods in Philly that can cater to the average middle class family. Homes in and around Center City are super expensive and then you get into the outer neighborhoods where the homes are cheap but old and tiny. Relative to the endless rows of airlites and older rowhomes, the small pockets of decently sized modern-ish homes in the far northeast and pockets of northwest is small.

that is quite a generalization of what homes are like outside of Center City. A lot of homes in NW Philadelphia range between a decent size and large. Thats even the case in a lot of Upper North Philadelphia- let's say north of Allegheny Ave. Im not saying the areas for those homes are the greatest, but there are many large rowhomes in Upper North Philadelphia/Logan. And then you have East Oak lane were most of the singles are probably in excess of 2500sf.

NE Philly and Cedarbrook do have a lot of post WW2 rowhouses that are quite small.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

It's sad but the housing stock is there, the neighborhoods quality of life just isn't. Wynnefield, Overbrook Farms, Germantown, Oxford Circle and Tacony are a few that come to mind. They have awesome detached single family homes. Besides Chestnut Hill and west Mt. Airy, Wynnfield and Overbrook Farms might have the coolest non rowhome housing stock in the city.

Wynnfield: https://goo.gl/maps/Ae87L5UeEhESqJWB8
Overbrook Farms: https://goo.gl/maps/ZyEQPRoHQE1BZ6yCA
Oxford Circle: https://goo.gl/maps/S9SsLo5cEh4zjrT18
Germantown: https://goo.gl/maps/QaVZmbnQXSpxUAaLA
Tacony: https://goo.gl/maps/j4cLohGmAFFGt3u1A

Chestnut Hill, west Mt. Airy, Roxborough, Andorra and some of East Falls come to mind for other single family detached homes.

Wynnefield and Overbrook are pretty nice, especially the parts that are near City Ave. Not sure what quality of life would be lacking on the nice blocks in those areas. Unless you are talking about not being able to walk to bars and stuff.

[Urbanthusiat]

Came across this report: JLL's 2022 Life Sciences Research Outlook & Cluster Rankings

Philly is #5.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Came across this report: JLL's 2022 Life Sciences Research Outlook & Cluster Rankings

Philly is #5.

Cool. The stats are interesting, also shows strengths/weaknesses in each market.

But go Philly. We should strive for #3! It could be the big 3: Boston, SF, Philly. (F*** DC ).

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by allovertown

1,100 Sq feet is just small though, I don't think age is the issue there. If the argument is that newer row homes have more square footage then that's just a different house for a different income level.

I would say that most small row homes in philly that are very old are laid out pretty sensibly to maximize space and interior light. Some are of course terrible, I remember looking at house that had such an enormous and oddly positioned staircase and 2nd floor hallway that I feel like more than half the second floor was just staircase and hallway. But again, I think a lot of newer row homes also have terrible layouts as well.

Bad layouts exist regardless of age. Smaller homes exist regardless of age and serve a market even if they're not practical for everyone. There is nothing inherently unsuitable about an old row home for modern living.

In many parts of the country where single family homes are out of reach for many people having 1100-1200 sf is the norm. I think by Philly standards where homes are more affordable than many hot coastal cities the expectation is that if you are upper middle class you should have multiple bathrooms and 2000sf of living space. So many working americans (even those with decent income) make do in the amount of space we are considering too small for the modern era (one only has to look north to NYC) but locally we have higher expectations based on the relative value Philadelphia provides. I don't think there is anyone living with a family of 4 or more in less than 1600sf who doesn't wish their place is larger, regardless of the age of the housing stock.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Cool. The stats are interesting, also shows strengths/weaknesses in each market.

But go Philly. We should strive for #3! It could be the big 3: Boston, SF, Philly. (F*** DC ).

According to that, Philly's weakness is that it hasn't added enough inventory to accommodate the growth in Cell/Gene Therapy needs. Sounds like we need to build more here.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by cardeza

In many parts of the country where single family homes are out of reach for many people having 1100-1200 sf is the norm. I think by Philly standards where homes are more affordable than many hot coastal cities the expectation is that if you are upper middle class you should have multiple bathrooms and 2000sf of living space. So many working americans (even those with decent income) make do in the amount of space we are considering too small for the modern era (one only has to look north to NYC) but locally we have higher expectations based on the relative value Philadelphia provides. I don't think there is anyone living with a family of 4 or more in less than 1600sf who doesn't wish their place is larger, regardless of the age of the housing stock.

I think you're right. If given the opportunity and a bigger budget. Many families will choose to live in more square footage not less. And, I do like older but larger single family stone homes. Like ones built with real PA stones like the Wissahickon schist. Gut those out to bring it up to code and put in better insulation, update kitchen and bathrooms and amenities and conveniences and they become very desirable and an expansive rehab. A home is about comfort and amenities that work for the homeowner/family. I actually like the "laundry room" on the 2nd floor. When you have kids and have to do so many loads, having it upstairs next to the bedrooms and bathrooms make sense.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Londonee

According to that, Philly's weakness is that it hasn't added enough inventory to accommodate the growth in Cell/Gene Therapy needs. Sounds like we need to build more here.

And interesting that San Diego's weakness is talent pool.

That is a better position for Philadelphia: Access to tons of talent but not enough inventory.

This makes me wonder why Republic Properties (based out of DC) hasn't moved on their planned building near 32nd/Arch.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

And interesting that San Diego's weakness is talent pool.

That is a better position for Philadelphia: Access to tons of talent but not enough inventory.

This makes me wonder why Republic Properties (based out of DC) hasn't moved on their planned building near 32nd/Arch.

Trust me, they are, it's just all behind the scenes. There's a lot of coordination work involved with SEPTA.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Trust me, they are, it's just all behind the scenes. There's a lot of coordination work involved with SEPTA.

Yay, great to hear.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

It's sad but the housing stock is there, the neighborhoods quality of life just isn't. Wynnefield, Overbrook Farms, Germantown, Oxford Circle and Tacony are a few that come to mind. They have awesome detached single family homes. Besides Chestnut Hill and west Mt. Airy, Wynnfield and Overbrook Farms might have the coolest non rowhome housing stock in the city.

Wynnfield: https://goo.gl/maps/Ae87L5UeEhESqJWB8
Overbrook Farms: https://goo.gl/maps/ZyEQPRoHQE1BZ6yCA
Oxford Circle: https://goo.gl/maps/S9SsLo5cEh4zjrT18
Germantown: https://goo.gl/maps/QaVZmbnQXSpxUAaLA
Tacony: https://goo.gl/maps/j4cLohGmAFFGt3u1A

Chestnut Hill, west Mt. Airy, Roxborough, Andorra and some of East Falls come to mind for other single family detached homes.

Each of the aforementioned neighborhoods is beautiful. Truth be told, I would have purchased in any of those neighborhoods if I were single when I bought my house--except for Oxford Circle, which lacks a one-seat ride to Center City. My fiancée and I ended up settling in Roxborough after realizing that we could afford a relatively large--and, in some cases, new construction--house for under $450,000. We would have gone for Germantown, but very little inventory was available in the northwestern corner (near Tulpehocken Station) when we entered the market earlier this year.

Also, some people may not realize it, but it's possible to buy a large rowhome in Manayunk. We nearly bought a 1,700 sq. ft. house near Hillside Recreation Center before settling on our Roxborough house.

Originally Posted by cardeza

that is quite a generalization of what homes are like outside of Center City. A lot of homes in NW Philadelphia range between a decent size and large. Thats even the case in a lot of Upper North Philadelphia- let's say north of Allegheny Ave. Im not saying the areas for those homes are the greatest, but there are many large rowhomes in Upper North Philadelphia/Logan. And then you have East Oak lane were most of the singles are probably in excess of 2500sf.

East Oak Lane is one of the city's best-kept secrets. The further north of 66th Avenue you go, the more it starts to feel like Mount Airy. Also, I fully believe that Logan will see renewed interest in the future due to its large homes, relatively well-kept blocks, and in-tact commercial corridor along North Broad.

Another neighborhood with large homes is Strawberry Mansion, especially to the west of Ridge and below York Street.

[PHLJD13]

Hideous project benefitting an underserved subsection of the population.

https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/c...of-affordable-senior-housing-at-9th-vine

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

And interesting that San Diego's weakness is talent pool.

That is a better position for Philadelphia: Access to tons of talent but not enough inventory.

This makes me wonder why Republic Properties (based out of DC) hasn't moved on their planned building near 32nd/Arch.

There was a Philly Biz Journal article back in May that said there is currently 11 million sq ft worth of lab and mfg space under construction now (~$4B) in both Philly and Suburbs.

No doubt once that comes online we can close the gap on DC!

[New2Fishtown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

And interesting that San Diego's weakness is talent pool.

That is a better position for Philadelphia: Access to tons of talent but not enough inventory.

This makes me wonder why Republic Properties (based out of DC) hasn't moved on their planned building near 32nd/Arch.

The drying up of the venture capital markets is a major (but temporary) obstacle to filling up the new supply that is finally on its way. A lot of life sciences companies are hitting pause on physical expansion plans given how much investment has dried up. Most of these companies rely almost exclusively on VC money for years and years until they actually receive FDA approvals for therapies and can start to make money. The number of tenants actively looking for the space has definitely dropped significantly since last year. Hopefully there'll be more out-of-market companies that get on the bandwagon and expand or relocate here as we've seen with Iovance and Achilles and several others. Without more inbound tenants, it will likely be challenging to fill up new supply that's yet to come out of the ground since so much of Philly's life sciences ecosystem is early stage companies.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

Hideous project benefitting an underserved subsection of the population.

https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-philly/c...of-affordable-senior-housing-at-9th-vine

Meh. It's sited along 9th street where it's all 2-3 story rowhomes, so it fills that gap nicely. The larger and lucrative parts of that huge empty area are still available for larger projects. I guess we will see.

[iheartphilly]

^
It's good infill and purpose (senior homes), but ditch the cheap panels. There has to be something better in that price range.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

And interesting that San Diego's weakness is talent pool.

SD is an interesting animal and I am forever amazed at how it continues to stay in a certain lane and flies under the radar. Ultimately this is probably good for it, though.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

SD is an interesting animal and I am forever amazed at how it continues to stay in a certain lane and flies under the radar. Ultimately this is probably good for it, though.

SD is the only West Coast city I like. Reminds me of home in a lot of ways.