Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Migrant_Coconut]

AFAIK there's no reason they can't have an independent line with the same rolling stock (or semi-independent, if they really want to reuse the OMC) and save themselves the logistical MENSA puzzle. A wye would necessitate a temporary shutdown of King George-Langley while they redo all the track, but "just" going over or under the Expo gets them out of the way of each other.

[nname]

All these talk of not having enough capacity to Langley...

In the current business plan, TransLink only planned to run 1/3 or 1/4 of the trains to Langley. Half of the train to Surrey will short-turn at 140th Street.

See appendix D in the business case:
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/transp...appendices/appendix_d_ridership_memo.pdf

[Migrant_Coconut]

Right, but in the future, that could change. A branch to Newton locks Surrey Central to Langley into 4-5 minute maximum headways in perpetuity.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

(broken record)
So long as it's a brand new line instead of branching the Expo. A three-way split kills any kind of frequent service past King George.
(/broken record)

Agreed.

Originally Posted by mcj

Currently, that's the only way I see this integrating with existing plans and would turn Surrey Central station into more of a "central station" with 4 tracks.

I also agree. And I also think that's a leading reason why Translink has held off on properly redesigning Surrey Central Station, only giving it additional access points in the last decade.

At the risk of moving the discussion into fantasy territory, I think that there's more than one way to get a Skytrain down KGB...

You could also theoretically if you wanted to avoid using any flyovers...:

- Interline or quad-track the new line from Surrey Central to King George Station.

- Redesign KG Station (along with Surrey Central Station) so that it too can host more platforms to accommodate 4 tracks... It's too bad that KG station was never an island station but whatever, still easier to redesign than Columbia station.

- Have the line branch off and run adjacent to Quibble Creek with a station on 138th/96th or a station on 138th on top of a parking lot, closer to the Hospital.

- Continue running the line along 94a avenue, to then turn south to continue along KGB.

Overall I think that this Mayoral candidate is saying this to just try and get votes. I personally think that she's getting ahead of herself but I absolutely agree with the vision of getting Skytrain to Newton and beyond... eventually. Skytrain is a very sexy thing to dangle in front of the residents of Greater Vancouver .

[nname]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Right, but in the future, that could change. A branch to Newton locks Surrey Central to Langley into 4-5 minute maximum headways in perpetuity.

If there ever going to need extra capacity, they could either:
1. Run Langley - Surrey Central short-turn
2. Turn Production branch into a shuttle train
3. Realign Production branch to become a branch of Millennium Line

Item 2 and 3 are already under consideration by TransLink (not because Surrey segment need more capacity though)

But we're talking about maybe 2050 at the earliest. With 4.5min, the Langley branch already provide 50% more capacity than both Millennium Line and Canada Line today, or 300% more service than the original LRT plan, or 60% more capacity than TransLink think it's ever needed for the segment. So the plan should be fine for the short and medium term at least.

Don't need to overbuild for something that's probably not needed for another 30-50 years.

[Migrant_Coconut]

#2 makes getting from Surrey to SFU or Coquitlam even harder, and #3 screws over the Tri-Cities. I know you've got to work with the infrastructure you have, but neither should be a first resort.

To my understanding, the M-Line already comes every 3-4 minutes at peak, so it's actually more frequent than just 1/3rd of the Expo. And 4.5 minutes peak to Langley also means 9+ minutes off-peak to both it and Newton... we'd be creating another Canada Line in the biggest sub-region of Vancouver.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

#2 makes getting from Surrey to SFU or Coquitlam even harder, and #3 screws over the Tri-Cities. I know you've got to work with the infrastructure you have, but neither should be a first resort.

To my understanding, the M-Line already comes every 3-4 minutes at peak, so it's actually more frequent than just 1/3rd of the Expo. And 4.5 minutes peak to Langley also means 9+ minutes off-peak to both it and Newton... we'd be creating another Canada Line in the biggest sub-region of Vancouver.

The main difference is, M-Line is using 2 car trains, while Langley will use 4-5 car trains when it opens.

And it's already expected that when Broadway opens and M-Line moves to 4-car trains, every second train will either terminate at Lougheed, or go to Columbia (or Waterfront). Coquitlam portion will have lower frequency but maintain the same capacity.

And according to the business plan, the Langley portion will operate at
2028 - 5:54 (peak), 10:00 (off-peak)
2035 - 5:00 (peak), 10:00 (off-peak)
2050 - 4:30 (peak), 10:00 (off-peak)

So based on that, they are not worry about the capacity of the Langley portion until maybe 2060 or 2070, but even then, the issue can be easily solved by just extending (or running shuttle trains) during peak hours, and simply improve frequency during off-peak.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Fair enough, but the point remains that we can "just" make Newton-Guildford separate from the Expo - possibly connect it to the Langley OMC - for not (relatively) much more money, and avoid the problem altogether.

Which reminds me: a Newton Expo branch also prevents SkyTrain to Guildford. They've already got the town centre plan and everything.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Fair enough, but the point remains that we can "just" make Newton-Guildford separate from the Expo - possibly connect it to the Langley OMC - for not (relatively) much more money, and avoid the problem altogether.

Which reminds me: a Newton Expo branch also prevents SkyTrain to Guildford. They've already got the town centre plan and everything.

From the ATP and original Surrey LRT plan, TransLink does not think Guildford branch have the demand to support SkyTrain. They even think LRT for the corridor might be overkill.

From the list of alternatives proposed way back, there was never a SkyTrain option to Guildford - the only choices for the corridor was LRT, BRT, or business as usual.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by nname

From the ATP and original Surrey LRT plan, TransLink does not think Guildford branch have the demand to support SkyTrain. They even think LRT for the corridor might be overkill.

From the list of alternatives proposed way back, there was never a SkyTrain option to Guildford - the only choices for the corridor was LRT, BRT, or business as usual.

IIRC that was before the density plan. This is bound to get at least as much ridership as 2023's King George.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by nname

From the ATP and original Surrey LRT plan, TransLink does not think Guildford branch have the demand to support SkyTrain. They even think LRT for the corridor might be overkill.

From the list of alternatives proposed way back, there was never a SkyTrain option to Guildford - the only choices for the corridor was LRT, BRT, or business as usual.

Guildford is in a really weird spot. Either 7-12 min from Gateway or Surrey Central Stn with many buses that run along 104th or 108th (R1, 320, 335, 337 501 and 509). Potentially a 10 min bus ride away from the future 152nd station as well. There's no business case for a Skytrain station there.

I think it would be wiser to construct a Transit hub near the 156th HOV ramps and get more connections down Hwy #1 to Coquitlam or Lougheed.

[Tvisforme]

If/when a Newton extension is built, and if it does connect to the Expo Line track, TransLink could potentially use it to create a Surrey-Coquitlam line. This would go from Newton to the Expo connection point, share the track with Expo over the bridge, with a new connection that skips Columbia to go directly north to Lougheed and then east on the Millennium track. Expo could be strictly Waterfront-Langley (and variations) without branching to Newton and Lougheed, with Newton filling in the gaps for Millennium runs that short-turn at Lougheed.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

If/when a Newton extension is built, and if it does connect to the Expo Line track, TransLink could potentially use it to create a Surrey-Coquitlam line. This would go from Newton to the Expo connection point, share the track with Expo over the bridge, with a new connection that skips Columbia to go directly north to Lougheed and then east on the Millennium track. Expo could be strictly Waterfront-Langley (and variations) without branching to Newton and Lougheed, with Newton filling in the gaps for Millennium runs that short-turn at Lougheed.

That's a big project, bt not unheard of.
In the 1990s, I think (?), Docklands Light Railway in London added a viaduct/ramp to its main interchange.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by officedweller

That's a big project, bt not unheard of.
In the 1990s, I think (?), Docklands Light Railway in London added a viaduct/ramp to its main interchange.

Thinking further about this, it might make more sense to add a Newton/Coquitlam platform at Columbia instead of a northbound connection from the SkyBridge. Otherwise, Expo passengers bound for SFU from stations east of Broadway/Commercial would have to change at Scott Road or backtrack to Broadway.

[officedweller]

It could always be a platform requiring a reversing movement to continue through to Lougheed.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Maybe just Production Way-Newton? Still need two transfers for Coq-Surrey, but it's a simpler way to solve all the branching/merging problems.

[GMasterAres]

I like the idea of having a right turn northbound off Sky Bridge for a direct to Coquitlam. As it stands now, going to Coquitlam (Or Millenium line) is a pain in the arse from Surrey. It goes to Columbia then you have to get off the train, run all around to the other platform, and catch a train the other direction.

Would be way easier to be able to just skip Columbia and go Scott Road > Sapperton and maybe a "Newton" line could justify that. Doesn't solve Lougheed but then it no longer requires 2 changes and Lougheed is a better "mode change" designed station than Columbia which is terrible.

I dunno we'll see. I equally don't believe Guildford has the need for Skytrain at this stage. Newton barely does honestly, LRT would be sufficient and could be a stopgap to at least get the right of way built for future Skytrain. And the amount of griping I saw about the ALR for the Fraser Highway line (4km) would be just as loud for the 5km+ of ALR a KGB line would need to travel.

[officedweller]

I think we missed this - Oct 11th.

Bidding process begins for $475 million contract to build Surrey-Langley SkyTrain's eight stations
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/surrey-langley-skytrain-station-construction-bidding-contract

[JS04]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think we missed this - Oct 11th.

Bidding process begins for $475 million contract to build Surrey-Langley SkyTrain's eight stations
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/surrey-langley-skytrain-station-construction-bidding-contract

Are the names of the stations going to be the street numbers? Or is it too early to know

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by JS04

Are the names of the stations going to be the street numbers? Or is it too early to know

Welcome to the forum! Much too early - we only know which street they're on.