DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[rds70]

Here is a rendering of the proposed 18-story apartment building planned at the northeast corner of 8th and Lincoln. It is proposed to include 330 units, 324 parking spaces and ground floor retail. Construction is proposed to begin in the fall of 2023.

[twalm]

I was in Belleview Station this morning. Looks like One Seven at Belleview Station has topped out and the Kimpton hotel is making fast progress.

In bigger news, the 18 story mixed use site directly across from the station has resumed construction after being halted early 2020. Not sure if it is the same project from before but I did find a render from when it was originally under construction. Pulled from this site.

[TakeFive]

Campaign Season makes for good Sound Bites?

Take Gov. Polis for example : https://www.cpr.org/2022/09/26/jared-polis-housing-policy-colorado-elections-2022/

Much of his focus in his second term would be “to really solve — rather than just pretend to solve, or throw money at, or talk around the edges of — the housing affordability crisis in the state,” he said.

Throw one good idea at me?

“We need more housing density in many parts of our state. We need it along transit corridors and close to where jobs are,” he said. “What we don't need is more exurban sprawl, which would worsen our water issues for the entire state, put more traffic on the roads and decrease our air quality.”

Polis seems open for State oversight but he prefer incentives. Now, I love incentives but exactly what and how is TBD. It could be a long, winding road to get there from here but having the conversation never hurts.

The looming recession may be the biggest assist to affordability depending on how it impacts Denver/metro. Interest rates which have been trending higher have really popped over the last couple of weeks.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Campaign Season makes for good Sound Bites?

Take Gov. Polis for example : https://www.cpr.org/2022/09/26/jared-polis-housing-policy-colorado-elections-2022/

Throw one good idea at me?

Polis seems open for State oversight but he prefer incentives. Now, I love incentives but exactly what and how is TBD. It could be a long, winding road to get there from here but having the conversation never hurts.

The looming recession may be the biggest assist to affordability depending on how it impacts Denver/metro. Interest rates which have been trending higher have really popped over the last couple of weeks.

I realize everyone has their own truth, but as someone who is below water in the housing industry in this state, the Gov needs to tie state funding to local zoning, minimum standards, and parking reform and I dare say pull state funding to local government first and then reallocate to those areas meeting tangible reforms in order to prevent the years/decades long efforts some local governments take to enact reforms. Guarantee you they'd move incredibly fast if they didn't have enough money.

Some on here don't think zoning, minimum standards, permitting timelines, and parking are real issues or you think the construction industry is an artificial limiter of production potential. Are you in the industry doing this everyday? Are you talking to actual housing producers who all generally agree these three items are the main headwinds for more housing? We need to prioritize people over all of these things. Someone having a home is so much more important than 2.1 vs 1.7 vs 0.6 parking spaces per unit. It's so much more important than an 8' travel lane vs an 11' travel lane. It's so much more important than a 50' water easement vs just being flexible. In this country, we just want to live in our perfect world bubble that doesn't change - it's crushing people.

If the Gov could waive a magic wand at a list of 10 primary local constrictors of housing production, he could so easily reform housing production in this state. In some ways, I envy China for it's ability to do these types of things. Polis might actually have the audacity to do it the American way. At least he knows that simply throwing general fund dollars at the issue won't move the needle.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Throw one good idea at me?

I'll answer your question with some more questions. These questions are limitations that affect both the time to permit, amount of production, and type of production.

Do you think it is appropriate for:

1. Separate utility providers to have exclusive easement areas, typically 20-50 feet in width which do not allow for cars to be parked in them?

2. Local government to dictate the percentage of different types of materials on a building (ie masonry, siding, stucco, etc)?

3. Public works departments to require unrelated off-site improvements (or fees in lieu of actual improvements) of their infrastructure which those same public works departments have neglected for decades?

4. Community development staff to disallow or not support rezoning applications which specifically meet an identified comprehensive plan goal because it is not the path of least resistance for them, personally, in their career because they work for an anti-development council they don't want to deal with?

5. City's to restrict open communication and prohibit engagement between developers and elected officials from any contact whatsoever once a project is submitted to a City?

6. Have a single local resident or property owner (there's an attorney in every neighborhood) file suit against a legitimate land use change via Section 106 to delay, and ultimately kill, development without any threshold for community participation (ie % of local residents signing onto the suit with signature verification)?

7. Have a City dictate everything from minimum unit sizes to hot tub and splash pad requirements, balcony railing opacity, and appropriate amenities?

8. Community development departments to take 18-24 months to process permits for small and large projects?

9. Is it appropriate for local government to require open space dedications or fees in lieu which effectively double (sometimes more) the cost of land?

10. Is it appropriate for a City Council to require a vote on every vertical development after a horizontal land use plan has already been voted on by that same Council and approved?

These are all real things that happen. I'd say 50% of the above list is applicable to EVERY SINGLE PROJECT and each one has the effect of producing less housing.

My take is this- I'm ok with zoning generally governing land use in certain areas, height restrictions, setbacks, and strong building codes to protect occupants for life/safety, etc. I am not ok with any of this taking YEARS to process - if local government cannot keep up with the market, they need to reform their entitlement requirements so they can process permitting at a reasonable pace. I am also not ok with the entitlement nanny state that has somehow gone legally unchallenged in our country in the last 100 years. The nanny state is artificially stifling housing production nearly everywhere in this country. It's one thing for associations or special districts to voluntarily adopt development and aesthetic standards, but it's a whole other thing for the government to go WAY beyond what associations do to impose the government's preferences for vertical land use.

There hasn't been a significant challenge to zoning/land use/building standards in a very long time and our country is ripe for a nationally led reform of the extent to which our zoning laws in this country should go to dictate how development happens and what kind of development that is. An organization like the NAHB, NAR, or even HUD should lead an effort to reform land use, minimum standards, and zoning at the Supreme Court level.

This was kind of a rant, but it's everyday stuff every developer and builder deal with. The devil really is in the details and there are so many details these days it's mind blowing.

[TakeFive]

Sounds like a quite nice project

Originally Posted by rds70

Here is a rendering of the proposed 18-story apartment building planned at the northeast corner of 8th and Lincoln. It is proposed to include 330 units, 324 parking spaces and ground floor retail. Construction is proposed to begin in the fall of 2023.

The units look to be more generous than many projects.

https://milehighcre.com/18-story-apartment-community-planned-for-the-golden-triangle/

The property will provide studio, 1-bedroom, and 2-bedroom apartments ranging in size from 500 square foot studio units to 1,200 square foot 2-bedroom/2-bath units.

The architectural design pays homage to the historic neighborhood to the east and northeast by showcasing punched window openings, while the canted, glassy volume at the intersection pays homage to the creative heart of the museum district to the north.

I'm not familiar with the developer Trailbreak Partners who's headquartered in Denver. They have built a number of projects although this one looks to be their 'crown jewel' to date.

Next Stop: Design Advisory Board

[TakeFive]

I'm very reluctant to disrespect a 'man of the cloth' so I'm not inclined to debate your preaching

Originally Posted by laniroj

If the Gov could waive a magic wand at a list of 10 primary local constrictors of housing production, he could so easily reform housing production in this state. In some ways, I envy China for it's ability to do these types of things. Polis might actually have the audacity to do it the American way. At least he knows that simply throwing general fund dollars at the issue won't move the needle.

For god or bad, Gov Polis doesn't have a magic wand and I'm skeptical he'd know what to do with it if he did.

There's too many political subdivisions to find one set of prescription drugs.

Is CDOT ahead of the crowd with solutions?

To fill hundreds of empty snowplow seats, CDOT plans to offer state-owned housing to drivers
September 27, 2022 By Nathaniel Minor - CPR News

It’s not that John Lorme can’t hire anyone to drive snowplows. He can’t get them to stay hired.

“Right before they start, they tell us they can't take the job because they can't find housing,” said Lorme, the Colorado Department of Transportation’s director of maintenance and operations. “It's either affordability or availability depending on where you are. And sometimes it's both.”

While CDOT plans to continue its current strategy of “surging” its maintenance workers to under-staffed mountain areas in the winter months, the agency also sees workforce housing as a more permanent fix for its hiring problems. The agency is planning to spend $6.5 million on housing projects along the vital Interstate 70 corridor and in other housing-starved mountain towns.

[TakeFive]

1,800 Residential Units Proposed for 74-Acre Site - in Denver
September 27, 2022 - Mile High CRE

According to the public documents, the planned concept aims to “create a dense and vibrant urban center that supports future residents and visitors with street activation and connectivity and are accessible due to well-connected networks defined by a consistent street grid, pedestrian facilities, and efficient access to high-capacity transit.”

Norris Design, the planner and landscape architect for the project, submitted the application on behalf of Texas-based DIA Colorado, LP/Spur 10, LLC, that purchased the property in 2018 for $14.5 million, according to property records. Core Consultants, Inc. is the civil engineer and Meeks Partners is the architect.

It does seem to take forever to get past permitting etc. Just checked and Lorretta Heights still hasn't started residential development that I could find. Then there's the old CDOT HQ site on E. Arkansas which is also sitting there waiting for development. And the old Park Hill Golf Course site has a very long ways to go to break ground.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

There's too many political subdivisions to find one set of prescription drugs.

Funny, that's why I thought we had a state government.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Funny, that's why I thought we had a state government.

Have you ever considered being a lobbyist? It might just be a worthwhile venture.

[TakeFive]

Just for giggles I googled cheapest places to live

https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/cheapest-places-to-live

1. Hickory, NC
2. Green Bay, WI
3. Huntsville, AL
4. Quad Cities, IA-IL (Davenport-Bettendorf, IA & Moline-Rock Island, IL)
5. Fort Wayne, IN
6. Pittsburgh, PA
7. Beaumont, TX
8. Fayetteville, AR
9. Peoria, IL
10. Youngstown, OH
11. Grand Rapids, MI
12. Des Moines, IA
13. South Bend, IN
14. Huntington, WV & Ashland, KY-OH
15. Greenville, SC

Maybe some of you 'young 🞵🞵🞵🞵' could study what these cities are doing right that Colorado/Denver could learn from and copy.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Just for giggles I googled cheapest places to live

https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/cheapest-places-to-live

1. Hickory, NC
2. Green Bay, WI
3. Huntsville, AL
4. Quad Cities, IA-IL (Davenport-Bettendorf, IA & Moline-Rock Island, IL)
5. Fort Wayne, IN
6. Pittsburgh, PA
7. Beaumont, TX
8. Fayetteville, AR
9. Peoria, IL
10. Youngstown, OH
11. Grand Rapids, MI
12. Des Moines, IA
13. South Bend, IN
14. Huntington, WV & Ashland, KY-OH
15. Greenville, SC

Maybe some of you 'young 🞵🞵🞵🞵' could study what these cities are doing right that Colorado/Denver could learn from and copy.

Greenville, Des Moines, Grand Rapids, and Pittsburgh are all quite nice places. The others? They are cheap because nobody wants to move there.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Have you ever considered being a lobbyist? It might just be a worthwhile venture.

You go.....we gooooo

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Just for giggles I googled cheapest places to live

https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/cheapest-places-to-live

1. Hickory, NC
2. Green Bay, WI
3. Huntsville, AL
4. Quad Cities, IA-IL (Davenport-Bettendorf, IA & Moline-Rock Island, IL)
5. Fort Wayne, IN
6. Pittsburgh, PA
7. Beaumont, TX
8. Fayetteville, AR
9. Peoria, IL
10. Youngstown, OH
11. Grand Rapids, MI
12. Des Moines, IA
13. South Bend, IN
14. Huntington, WV & Ashland, KY-OH
15. Greenville, SC

Maybe some of you 'young 🞵🞵🞵🞵' could study what these cities are doing right that Colorado/Denver could learn from and copy.

I'd say what they've done that Denver hasn't is be in a location where not many people want to be Or maybe that's just me, but you couldn't pay me to live in any of those cities. Less demand = more housing supply?

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Denverinfill recently posted a GOLIATH roundup regarding the North quadrant of RiNo. There are 22 projects in total that they cover. Absolutely insane

https://denverinfill.com/2022/09/river-north-north-roundup-sep-2022.html

[TakeFive]

Thanks for the feedback

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Greenville, Des Moines, Grand Rapids, and Pittsburgh are all quite nice places. The others? They are cheap because nobody wants to move there.

You are likely more familiar with than I am but I had wondered about the same cities.

I have a Denver Nuggets blog buddy who's an IT guy living in the Quad Cities and I knew that was a mixed bag; but Des Moines is considered pretty nice I thought.

I love Pittsburgh's baseball stadium and the Steelers are an iconic franchise. They've done a solid job with transit including Bus Rapid Transit.

Is Greenville SC a nice place to live?

Considered to be a nice, small city with friendly and outgoing people, Greenville has recently landed on the radar of a lot of individuals considering making a move. Within driving distance to both the beach and the mountains, as well as thriving downtown, this is a lovely spot to call home.

Is Grand Rapids a good city to live in?

Grand Rapids is in Kent County and is one of the best places to live in Michigan. Living in Grand Rapids offers residents a dense suburban feel and most residents own their homes. In Grand Rapids there are a lot of bars, restaurants, coffee shops, and parks.

Certainly, livability and desirability are not the same thing as affordability.

This Absolutely

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I'd say what they've done that Denver hasn't is be in a location where not many people want to be Or maybe that's just me, but you couldn't pay me to live in any of those cities. Less demand = more housing supply?

Going back a decade or so I'd say the key differences are likely economic drivers and Millennial appeal.

For Denver it's always been about the Rocky Mountains for many; but go back several decades the city/metro grew at a more modest pace often reflecting a boom and bust economy.

[TakeFive]

The Beauty of the Industrial Landscape

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Denverinfill recently posted a GOLIATH roundup regarding the North quadrant of RiNo. There are 22 projects in total that they cover. Absolutely insane

https://denverinfill.com/2022/09/river-north-north-roundup-sep-2022.html

BTW, that post caused rapid onset for a headache. Who can keep track of all that '🞵🞵🞵🞵'?

Once again, it's worth pointing out the genius of FasTracks

FasTracks lit the fuse for what became a Wild Fire of development.

38th and Blake Station

quickly became a bookend anchor for RiNo's development.

All That Land

for development given an industrial canvass is easy to paint over.

For years we've read about this entity buying X parcel in RiNo. There's easily a decade worth of projects ahead. A lot of that post by Dravitz (as he points out) is a result of wanting to beat the DCC's new affordability act.

Two specific "likes" about that post

1) The Arkins Promenade insert and 2) the funky Vib Hotel RiNo which I rather like. Props to Best Western.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Just for giggles I googled cheapest places to live

https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/cheapest-places-to-live

1. Hickory, NC
2. Green Bay, WI
3. Huntsville, AL
4. Quad Cities, IA-IL (Davenport-Bettendorf, IA & Moline-Rock Island, IL)
5. Fort Wayne, IN
6. Pittsburgh, PA
7. Beaumont, TX
8. Fayetteville, AR
9. Peoria, IL
10. Youngstown, OH
11. Grand Rapids, MI
12. Des Moines, IA
13. South Bend, IN
14. Huntington, WV & Ashland, KY-OH
15. Greenville, SC

Maybe some of you 'young 🞵🞵🞵🞵' could study what these cities are doing right that Colorado/Denver could learn from and copy.

A majority of those cities have lost population or had slow growth in the last 10 years. Much easier to have available housing stock which equates to cheaper living when your city is losing population. The few exceptions are in traditionally cheaper states to live.

[TakeFive]

Some (not all) statistics tell a valid story

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

A majority of those cities have lost population or had slow growth in the last 10 years. Much easier to have available housing stock which equates to cheaper living when your city is losing population. The few exceptions are in traditionally cheaper states to live.

I thought I recalled Huntsville having some appeal.

Why is Huntsville Alabama famous?

Huntsville is a city in northern Alabama that initially grew because of its cotton and railroad industries, but today it is best known for its military technology and aerospace industries. It was here that scientists designed and tested the Saturn V rocket that would send men to the moon for the first time.

Fayetteville AR appears to be a mix of the University Of and Walmart and other Fortune 500 companies in the vicinity.

I love demographic data and migration trends.

The Urbanization of America

has been ongoing for decades, especially to coastal cities and states.

The de- industrialization of America ofc led to the Rust Belt.

The Pandemic led to a reversal of above to a degree, especially in places like California, Chicago, Portland etc

The Great Recession led to a Millennial surge in urban growth to include cities in flyover country like Denver and Salt Lake City.

The re-industrialization of America which has gained momentum in recent years, led early by foreign vehicle manufacturing companies, has benefitted primarily the SE and South in general. States like Michigan, Ohio and Indiana have had some success retooling their economies. While 'these people' are everywhere these states have attracted lots of Eastern European and middle-eastern immigrants.

Obviously Denver has 'suffered' from especially rapid growth in recent years which is typical for many tech-driven hubs.

Going back to one of my recent posts it's really important for Denver to gain a bad reputation for various reasons; then 'we' can go back to being more affordable again.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Some (not all) statistics tell a valid story

I thought I recalled Huntsville having some appeal.

Why is Huntsville Alabama famous?


Fayetteville AR appears to be a mix of the University Of and Walmart and other Fortune 500 companies in the vicinity.

I love demographic data and migration trends.

The Urbanization of America

has been ongoing for decades, especially to coastal cities and states.

The de- industrialization of America ofc led to the Rust Belt.

The Pandemic led to a reversal of above to a degree, especially in places like California, Chicago, Portland etc

The Great Recession led to a Millennial surge in urban growth to include cities in flyover country like Denver and Salt Lake City.

The re-industrialization of America which has gained momentum in recent years, led early by foreign vehicle manufacturing companies, has benefitted primarily the SE and South in general. States like Michigan, Ohio and Indiana have had some success retooling their economies. While 'these people' are everywhere these states have attracted lots of Eastern European and middle-eastern immigrants.

Obviously Denver has 'suffered' from especially rapid growth in recent years which is typical for many tech-driven hubs.

Going back to one of my recent posts it's really important for Denver to gain a bad reputation for various reasons; then 'we' can go back to being more affordable again.

Yes. I think the big drawback to Denver is people are rude here. Very rude, in an almost backwater way.