Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And yet it isn't.

On paper it is. It still owns the railway line. Even if most of it is leased to CN.

It still has all the responsibilities that come along with that. It is just contracting out the majority of that work. The same way as WCE is contracting out the majority of the work of running its trains.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by casper

Studies are good and important but you honestly have to demonstrate there is demand before you start building new lines. Intercity buses from Chilliwack to the existing WCE or even to downtown is one way of doing that.

I would see it have a broad mandate. There is potential to connect Squamish to the lower mainland. Initially with inter-city bus that with integrated fair structure with local transit at both ends. If volume warrants potentially switching to rail (on lines that BC rail owns).

That's kind of my point: we've already got the FVX bus from Chilliwack to Lougheed, and current demand is less than 700 daily passengers. Probably best to focus on doubling and quadrupling that ridership for now.

Intercity buses to Squamish would be a good start, but expanding the BC Rail line into the cliffside seems prohibitively expensive. Since we're headed into Fantasy thread territory, I'd just buy a pair of Airlander 10s and run a line between YVR and Whistler (with Squamish as a layover).

Originally Posted by casper

On paper it is. It still owns the railway line. Even if most of it is leased to CN.

It still has all the responsibilities that come along with that. It is just contracting out the majority of that work. The same way as WCE is contracting out the majority of the work of running its trains.

Paper and practice are two very different things. So, honest question: why no passenger service? Wiki says it made a solid profit every year.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It only goes to Mission because they pay TransLink an additional $650m subsidy to get service. No extra mandate, no subscription fee.

I don't think it's quite that generous? I can't find a recent number, but in 2014 Mission contributed $770,000 per year to support West Coast Express service, in recognition of the station there. Interestingly, other Fraser Valley communities pay nothing, although licence plate checks of vehicles at the West Coast Express parking lot in Mission have found 30 to 40 per cent belong to Abbotsford residents. Despite Mission’s contribution, service on the Mission-Haney WCE leg is heavily subsidized by TransLink, which estimated its net cost at $1 to $2 million.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's kind of my point: we've already got the FVX bus from Chilliwack to Lougheed, and current demand is less than 700 daily passengers. Probably best to focus on doubling and quadrupling that ridership for now.

Intercity buses to Squamish would be a good start, but expanding the BC Rail line into the cliffside seems prohibitively expensive. Since we're headed into Fantasy thread territory, I'd just buy a pair of Airlander 10s and run a line between YVR and Whistler (with Squamish as a layover).

Not claiming rail to Squamish is justified. That has to be proven out ideally with real people choosing to use the bus service before making that commitment.

In decades passenger rail service did exist and the line is still in service with freight. So we are not talking about new rails, perhaps some costly upgrades to bring it back to passenger standards.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Paper and practice are two very different things. So, honest question: why no passenger service? Wiki says it made a solid profit every year.

Honestly, I think it came down to the Liberals of the day were on a "Crown corporations are bad" agenda. They wanted to see the head count in the provincial government reduced and part of that was selling off BC Rail. CN and CP were the only options and their not into passenger rail.

The interesting part of that story. That tender/negotiation was not handled well. There were allegations of undo influence form the political level and improper communication between political staffers and one of more of the bidders. An RCMP investigation and all of that. Since that communication was associated with the line to Roberts Bank that was pulled out of the deal and remained with BC rail. That the reason BC rail is still a operating railway and there were not able to wind down the company the way they had planned.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by casper

Not claiming rail to Squamish is justified. That has to be proven out ideally with real people choosing to use the bus service before making that commitment.

In decades passenger rail service did exist and the line is still in service with freight. So we are not talking about new rails, perhaps some costly upgrades to bring it back to passenger standards.

---

Honestly, I think it came down to the Liberals of the day were on a "Crown corporations are bad" agenda. They wanted to see the head count in the provincial government reduced and part of that was selling off BC Rail. CN and CP were the only options and their not into passenger rail.

The interesting part of that story. That tender/negotiation was not handled well. There were allegations of undo influence form the political level and improper communication between political staffers and one of more of the bidders. An RCMP investigation and all of that. Since that communication was associated with the line to Roberts Bank that was pulled out of the deal and remained with BC rail. That the reason BC rail is still a operating railway and there were not able to wind down the company the way they had planned.

Just observing that the next step up from a bus might not be a train. AFAIK the corridor is mono-tracked; I suppose the Province could force CN to yield to passenger service, but it's more likely that the solution involves more tracks overall, which'll cost us.

Yeah, I know that part of the story, but the NDP's been in charge for over five years, and they definitely don't care how big the government is... yet they haven't touched BC Rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

I like that idea but would do it a bit differently.

WCE is a shell company they have a few employees but contract out maintenance and train engineers.

The province has another shell of a railway BC Rail. Who have revenue of just under $30M a year.

There website is at: https://bcrco.com/ (including their financial statements).

BC Rail owns the rail line up to Prince George, that is leased to CN. They also own the line that connects Port of Vancouver Roberts Bank terminal to the rest of the rail network.

In addition to all of that BC Rail retains the rights to run passengers trains over the lines it leases to CN.

Merge WCE into BC Rail. Then give it an expanded mandate.

That would be a better idea than who runs it now.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Guess who'd be funding both of them? The province. What's the total amount of money a new/reelected premier gives out? Enough for only one. That's the ceiling.

Again, we get roughly one SkyTrain every election. We've still got UBC, the North Shore, Hastings, Willingdon, 41st, King George and maybe Port Coq or the West End, so that's 35-40 years after 2028, and then it's maybe time to consider the WCE. Splitting it into its own thing doesn't make the queue go any faster.

It is not about it going faster, but having an agency that can focus on it. The other thing is whether those should be the next focus or not. Maybe it should be an LRT in Victoria. Maybe it should be another WCE commuter line. Point is, but pulling it out of Translink, the merits of each thing can be looked at.

Originally Posted by casper

The advantage of splitting it is WCE operates beyond Translink service region with it going out into the valley. It also has some of the bus service that augments WCE during off peek service.

Having WCE with a province wide mandate will allow it take a broader look at planning and potential undertake smaller scale enhancements that may involve a single station beyond Mission or doing something with intercity buses. It addresses the fact Translink has no mandate or focus out in the valley.

Over the past year the province has had BC Transit extend its systems around the province to what amounts to inter-city routes since Greyhound pulled out. I think that is stop gap measure. That is better done with the types of buses used by WCE that city buses.

Or, they see that intercity routes should be rail routes. Either way, having an agency that has an equal spot at the table for projects serves all citizens better.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Technically the province couldn't nationalize anything, because only the federal government can do that. Could the provincial government take the WCE operations from TransLink and put it with a different Crown corporation (either a new one, or BC Rail)? Probably, yes.

Could they take the freight tracks from CP to be able to run the service all day? That seems extremely doubtful. The freight use is far more important to the provincial economy than a few thousand passengers travelling from the suburbs. It wouldn't make any sense to do that, and CP would probably win in court. Just assume that somehow the province could prevail, the compensation to CP would make the entire passenger operation the most subsidized in North America.

Would any political party consider a process like that? Also very doubtful. It's clear the NDP aren't stepping in to save the Island line without serious federal cash, so they're not into foolhardy transportation expenditures. They also don't seem to have a problem with the way that TransLink are managing WCE. And the BC Liberals are the ones who closed down BC Rail and leased the tracks to CN for 60 years, winding up the passenger service in the process. So they seem unlikely to want to support a new provincial passenger service.

And one card to take all BC Transit, and the ferries? In my book it barely rates a '1' on the scale of 1 to 10 important things to make transit better in BC. It's not that difficult to get a card or buy a ticket, especially now there's this thing called The Internet.

Ahem

Cough ICBC Cough

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Just observing that the next step up from a bus might not be a train. AFAIK the corridor is mono-tracked; I suppose the Province could force CN to yield to passenger service, but it's more likely that the solution involves more tracks overall, which'll cost us.

Yeah, I know that part of the story, but the NDP's been in charge for over five years, and they definitely don't care how big the government is... yet they haven't touched BC Rail.

The lease agreement with CN basically gives BC Rail the right to run passenger rail on the line anytime it wants to. I do agree we are not at the point where that is justified.

The line use to operate all the way between North Vancouver and Prince George. It also goes North of Prince George and has a small stretch into Alberta. However there is a stretch in the middle that has a number of bridges that is difficult and expensive to operate. CN has abandoned that stretch. It services freight customers on the northern section from Prince George and the Sothern section from North Vancouver. That is unfortunate since it would have provided a backup freight route out of Vancouver. in any case it not really a mainline anymore, so there is not a lot of freight traffic on it the way it use to be under BC Rail.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is not about it going faster, but having an agency that can focus on it. The other thing is whether those should be the next focus or not. Maybe it should be an LRT in Victoria. Maybe it should be another WCE commuter line. Point is, but pulling it out of Translink, the merits of each thing can be looked at.

--

Or, they see that intercity routes should be rail routes. Either way, having an agency that has an equal spot at the table for projects serves all citizens better.

--

Ahem

Cough ICBC Cough

Which can already be looked at with the current TransLink/BC Transit model; WCE expansion and the ICF have already been carefully considered and rejected because they don't make sense right now. Literally nothing stops BC Transit from running trains; if need be, Victoria can get a transit agency of its own. All this does is rearrange the deck chairs.

If they can barely justify an intercity bus route, then a rail route is definitely off the table.

Transit systems are tailored to the area, and have different fare and revenue structures. Motor vehicles are all equal.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which can already be looked at with the current TransLink/BC Transit model; WCE expansion and the ICF have already been carefully considered and rejected because they don't make sense right now. Literally nothing stops BC Transit from running trains; if need be, Victoria can get a transit agency of its own. All this does is rearrange the deck chairs.

If they can barely justify an intercity bus route, then a rail route is definitely off the table.

Transit systems are tailored to the area, and have different fare and revenue structures. Motor vehicles are all equal.

Can you show another area where the way it is done with Translink is good elsewhere?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Can you show another area where the way it is done with Translink is good elsewhere?

Singapore. The LTA handles roads, transit, taxis, rideshares, bike routes and hypothetical HSR, and it's worked out pretty well so far for the entire island.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Singapore. The LTA handles roads, transit, taxis, rideshares, bike routes and hypothetical HSR, and it's worked out pretty well so far for the entire island.

Isn't it a country?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Isn't it a country?

It's a city-state like Hong Kong. Parliament and city council are effectively the same thing.

Point is, one agency can easily manage an entire region without "neglecting" anybody. Some areas get more priority than others, but that's not prejudice, that's because they're more important to the network; they'll get their turn eventually. Such is life.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's a city-state like Hong Kong. Parliament and city council are effectively the same thing.

Point is, one agency can easily manage an entire region without "neglecting" anybody. Some areas get more priority than others, but that's not prejudice, that's because they're more important to the network; they'll get their turn eventually. Such is life.

So, if it is such a good idea, show me 4 more for a total of 5. I can show more than that for what I am trying to show than you are, and they are more successful than 1 line in almost 30 years.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, if it is such a good idea, show me 4 more for a total of 5. I can show more than that for what I am trying to show than you are, and they are more successful than 1 line in almost 30 years.

Those others you'll show me will undoubtedly be part of a government that's blowing $15 billion left, right and centre, while BC is already struggling to raise half that much. Have all the agencies you want. The only equality will be "equally broke."

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Those others you'll show me will undoubtedly be part of a government that's blowing $15 billion left, right and centre, while BC is already struggling to raise half that much. Have all the agencies you want. The only equality will be "equally broke."

Blowing, as in wasting?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Blowing, as in wasting?

That's one way of looking at it, though I meant it more like "splurging." You keep mentioning GO? Again, on top of the $15 billion for GO's heavy rail expansion, Ontario's also spending $11 billion on a single metro, $3 billion on a three-stop metro extension, and $20+ billion for several light rail projects. That's ~$50 billion, all at the same time, and I'm sure there's other projects I've missed.

Meanwhile, if BC wants $8 billion for two metros, that's already like pulling teeth. Doesn't matter how many agencies you have, they'll all be fighting each other for that $8 billion... and TransLink will get all of it anyway, just because everyone else's business cases —. You keep thinking the WCE is neglected because TransLink is prejudiced, when the reality is that they and the provincial government need to consider the entire region, and Mission, Abby et al are a very, very minor part of it. Increase population and density, increase bus ridership, get to, I dunno, 20,000 potential riders/day, and then maybe expansion makes sense.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's one way of looking at it, though I meant it more like "splurging." You keep mentioning GO? Again, on top of the $15 billion for GO's heavy rail expansion, Ontario's also spending $11 billion on a metro, $3 billion on a metro extension, and $20+ billion for several light rails. That's ~$50 billion, all at the same time, and I'm sure there's other projects I've missed.

Meanwhile, if BC wants $8 billion, that's already like pulling teeth. Doesn't matter how many agencies you have, they'll all be fighting each other for that $8 billion... and TransLink will get all of it anyway, just because everyone else's business cases —.

Maybe the reason Translink gets it is because they have all the power and should be broken up. For example, Look at where GO runs. How many transit agencies are there? How many of those transit agencies have asked for something? How many major extensions has GO added in the last 10 years?

Mind you, if you like an all encompassing agency, why not roll all agencies into one? That means Translink no longer exists. That also means Coast Mountain does not exist?

What you really want is a mess that is advantageous only to the people who want a longer Skytrain ride.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's a city-state like Hong Kong. Parliament and city council are effectively the same thing.

Point is, one agency can easily manage an entire region without "neglecting" anybody. Some areas get more priority than others, but that's not prejudice, that's because they're more important to the network; they'll get their turn eventually. Such is life.

I've taken transit on Metro Transit in Minneapolis / St Paul which runs buses, light rail and commuter rail, and carries over 90% of the region's transit riders, in Denver on RTD which runs buses, light rail and commuter rail and express buses to the suburbs, and on SEPTA in Philadelphia that operates bus, rapid transit, commuter rail, light rail, and electric trolleybus services. I haven't been to Baltimore in many years, but their MTA operate Bus, Light rail, Rapid transit and Commuter rail services.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe the reason Translink gets it is because they have all the power and should be broken up. For example, Look at where GO runs. How many transit agencies are there? How many of those transit agencies have asked for something? How many major extensions has GO added in the last 10 years?

Mind you, if you like an all encompassing agency, why not roll all agencies into one? That means Translink no longer exists. That also means Coast Mountain does not exist?

What you really want is a mess that is advantageous only to the people who want a longer Skytrain ride.

Or maybe it's because in the absence of a $50 billion spending spree, Metro Vancouver is really the only part of BC that justifies frequent trains? If BC had $50 billion, we could probably build a train to Kamloops, even if it sat empty the whole way.

What does Coast Mountain have to do with anything? It's a subsidiary of TransLink, as is Blue Bus - Balkanizing either achieves nothing except making it harder to get around the metro because this agency can't cross that boundary.

I get that it's fun to draw lines on a map for the hell of it, but when nobody will ride them, and they'll cost an arm to set up and a leg to operate, fun does not translate into reality, and the Province will continue to shoot it down no matter what agency is pushing for it. You're advocating for a mess that isn't advantageous to anybody.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe the reason Translink gets it is because they have all the power and should be broken up. For example, Look at where GO runs. How many transit agencies are there? How many of those transit agencies have asked for something? How many major extensions has GO added in the last 10 years?

Mind you, if you like an all encompassing agency, why not roll all agencies into one? That means Translink no longer exists. That also means Coast Mountain does not exist?

What you really want is a mess that is advantageous only to the people who want a longer Skytrain ride.

Given Translink is run by a committee of GVRD mayors an argument can be made for pulling WCE out if we are expecting WCE to take on a mandate that goes beyond the GVRD.

I am not certain what the argument is to do that to the rest of Translink. I would leave it alone.