Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

TransLink handles the GVRD and a few adjacent towns, BC Transit handles the rest - pretty straightforward. The problem is that BC doesn't have enough spending power in general, so splitting the WCE and other future heavy rail lines into a separate authority without increasing the overall transit funding (from all three branches of government) only guarantees their neglect in perpetuity.

Take the funding of WCE from Translink. Spin WCE and that money into a separate entity that reports to the province. Let that entity plan out and request funds for expansions. That is how GO/Metrolinx did it.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Take the funding of WCE from Translink. Spin WCE and that money into a separate entity that reports to the province. Let that entity plan out and request funds for expansions. That is how GO/Metrolinx did it.

So, you want to create a whole new bureaucracy to operate a system that for now (might) run five trains a day, with less than 50% of the pre-pandemic ridership? That sounds inefficient, and more expensive - are you sure you've thought this through?

You want this new agency to have 'the funding of WCE'. The problem is that they could easily get the fares, and the annual payment that Translink get for running to Mission. But the rest comes from TransLink revenue from parking taxes, the BC Hydro levy, property taxes, fuel taxes etc. So you expect TranLink to get a few cents less and this new agency to be added to all those bills? That sounds inefficient as well.

The current track access agreement is with TransLink, and you expect this tiny little new organization to try to expand access to the CP tracks. What if CP are unimpressed and aren't interested in more access? And they want more money for the same access? They're a private company, not a part of the federal government; they don't have to play nice.

Does this new agency pay TransLink for Transit Police service? Or do they have to hire their own random fare checkers to sometimes check tickets on the train?

Do they pay a fee to TransLink to carry on using Compass Cards? TransLink will want some of the fares if WCE Passengers are going to be able to use SkyTrain on the same ticket, for example.

Do they have to find their own staff and garage to run the 701 buses, or do they pay TransLink for that too?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Changing City

So, you want to create a whole new bureaucracy to operate a system that for now (might) run five trains a day, with less than 50% of the pre-pandemic ridership? That sounds inefficient, and more expensive - are you sure you've thought this through?

Yes, this should be done now if the goal is to ever expand the WCE style of service. It is ignored as it stands now.

Originally Posted by Changing City

You want this new agency to have 'the funding of WCE'. The problem is that they could easily get the fares, and the annual payment that Translink get for running to Mission. But the rest comes from TransLink revenue from parking taxes, the BC Hydro levy, property taxes, fuel taxes etc. So you expect TranLink to get a few cents less and this new agency to be added to all those bills? That sounds inefficient as well.

Then they get the stuff that generates the revenue too. For example, if there is a parking lot that has a fee at the station, it falls under this agency.

Originally Posted by Changing City

The current track access agreement is with TransLink, and you expect this tiny little new organization to try to expand access to the CP tracks. What if CP are unimpressed and aren't interested in more access? And they want more money for the same access? They're a private company, not a part of the federal government; they don't have to play nice.

Then the province can nationalize part of the service. The province can do that too, and they don't need t play nice either.....

Originally Posted by Changing City

Does this new agency pay TransLink for Transit Police service? Or do they have to hire their own random fare checkers to sometimes check tickets on the train?

Nope, the costs of the police and the funding for it would be taken overby the new agency.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Do they pay a fee to TransLink to carry on using Compass Cards? TransLink will want some of the fares if WCE Passengers are going to be able to use SkyTrain on the same ticket, for example.

If anything, they could take over the Compass card and have all the other agencies pay for access.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Do they have to find their own staff and garage to run the 701 buses, or do they pay TransLink for that too?

They could expand the bus service, much like GO has.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Then the province can nationalize part of the service. The province can do that too, and they don't need to play nice either.....

If anything, they could take over the Compass card and have all the other agencies pay for access.

Thanks. I've noted these two responses specifically as a helpful indication of how realistic your ideas are.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Take the funding of WCE from Translink. Spin WCE and that money into a separate entity that reports to the province. Let that entity plan out and request funds for expansions. That is how GO/Metrolinx did it.

Running out of ways to rephrase this, but I'll try again: Ontario can afford to blow $13.5 billion on expanding a money-loser. BC cannot.

And yes, the WCE loses money: it's subsidized for about $6 per passenger. Multiply that by 2.4m passengers/year at peak, and even if you transfer parking revenue and Mission's $750k subscription fee, you're still looking at a $13+ million deficit each year.

Not only do you think that's something worth nationalizing, you think it's also a good idea for the province to cannibalize the rest of the transit network's profit and expand it for another $4 billion, and then bring that out to the Valley for $8 billion and triple the operating cost... to get 3,900 more passengers. That'll make the Fast Ferries scandal look like a stroke of genius.

Face it: revenue from the rest of TransLink is the only thing keeping the WCE alive. With it, heavy rail has a slim chance of expansion by 2060-70; without it, our MLAs would be tempted to scrap it altogether.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Face it: revenue from the rest of TransLink is the only thing keeping the WCE alive. With it, heavy rail has a slim chance of expansion by 2060-70; without it, our MLAs would be tempted to scrap it altogether.

I think it's more likely that the 710 gets all day service to Mission before they think about WCE.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Thanks. I've noted these two responses specifically as a helpful indication of how realistic your ideas are.

Are you saying the province could not nationalize it? I am saying that if they wanted to, they could, but there isn't a need to as the WCE has been forgotten.

As far as the card, having a card that works across the province makes sense. Having it "owned" by one local transit agency does not if that is the goal.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Running out of ways to rephrase this, but I'll try again: Ontario can afford to blow $13.5 billion on expanding a money-loser. BC cannot.

And yes, the WCE loses money: it's subsidized for about $6 per passenger. Multiply that by 2.4m passengers/year at peak, and even if you transfer parking revenue and Mission's $750k subscription fee, you're still looking at a $13+ million deficit each year.

Not only do you think that's something worth nationalizing, you think it's also a good idea for the province to cannibalize the rest of the transit network's profit and expand it for another $4 billion, and then bring that out to the Valley for $8 billion and triple the operating cost... to get 3,900 more passengers. That'll make the Fast Ferries scandal look like a stroke of genius.

Face it: revenue from the rest of TransLink is the only thing keeping the WCE alive. With it, heavy rail has a slim chance of expansion by 2060-70; without it, our MLAs would be tempted to scrap it altogether.

GO is subsidized.

EXO is subsidized.

Point is, if you are serious about making commuter service viable, you need it separate from the local agencies.

I know there are many that would love to see the WCE shut down. Your opinion does not matter.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I think it's more likely that the 710 gets all day service to Mission before they think about WCE.

Most likely - if I'm just going to Coquitlam, what good is a fast ride when it only comes every one or two hours?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Are you saying the province could not nationalize it? I am saying that if they wanted to, they could, but there isn't a need to as the WCE has been forgotten.

As far as the card, having a card that works across the province makes sense. Having it "owned" by one local transit agency does not if that is the goal.

If the province already doesn't have enough funding for heavy rail, it'll have even less funding by taking on the operating loss directly.

Different parts of the province have different fare structures... and right now it's only Metro Van that likes to use public transit. It'll take a while before there's enough cross-system transfers for TransLink and BC Transit to need a single card.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

GO is subsidized.

EXO is subsidized.

Point is, if you are serious about making commuter service viable, you need it separate from the local agencies.

I know there are many that would love to see the WCE shut down. Your opinion does not matter.

Yes they are... and again, you conveniently ignore the fact that the ceiling is financial instead of political. As an independent entity, the WCE gets neglected. As part of TransLink, it gets slightly less neglected.

Neither does yours, evidently.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If the province already doesn't have enough funding for heavy rail, it'll have even less funding by taking on the operating loss directly.

Different parts of the province have different fare structures... and right now it's only Metro Van that likes to use public transit. It'll take a while before there's enough cross-system transfers for TransLink and BC Transit to need a single card.

Imagine being able to use the card on the ferries. Then you could use one card to pay for transit between Victoria and Vancouver.

Victoria also is a heavy user of transit.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yes they are... and again, you conveniently ignore the fact that the ceiling is financial instead of political. As an independent entity, the WCE gets neglected. As part of TransLink, it gets slightly less neglected.

Neither does yours, evidently.

I know what is the issue in BC. That doesn't mean that the services should not be split. The fact that some of the CVD transit is run by a different agency speaks to my point.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Imagine being able to use the card on the ferries. Then you could use one card to pay for transit between Victoria and Vancouver.

Victoria also is a heavy user of transit.

I know what is the issue in BC. That doesn't mean that the services should not be split. The fact that some of the CVD transit is run by a different agency speaks to my point.

Keep imagining it. Not enough foot traffic riding TransLink to justify an integration there either.

27 million trips/year isn't "heavy" usage, that's four RapidBuses. Vancouver had 224 million just in 2021.

Without enough funding to go around, splitting up the services is defeat-in-detail: everybody gets an equal share of nothing. Sticking with TransLink at least means the WCE technically breaks even.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Keep imagining it. Not enough foot traffic riding TransLink to justify an integration there either.

27 million trips/year isn't "heavy" usage, that's four RapidBuses. Vancouver had 224 million just in 2021.

Without enough funding to go around, splitting up the services is defeat-in-detail: everybody gets an equal share of nothing. Sticking with TransLink at least means the WCE technically breaks even.

Who said there isn't enough funding? The funding that is currently allocated would still be allocated. It would just separate the entities. Then Translink can stay focused on local transit in its jurisdiction and WCE can focus on commuter service. Nether will be leaches on each other.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Who said there isn't enough funding? The funding that is currently allocated would still be allocated. It would just separate the entities. Then Translink can stay focused on local transit in its jurisdiction and WCE can focus on commuter service. Nether will be leaches on each other.

They will absolutely leach off each other. Victoria's only willing to build one or two SkyTrains per election cycle, $4-8 billion at most; again, Surrey-Chilliwack or twinning Coq-Mission would take up that entire budget, so it's either one or the other.

Guess which one they'll go with? I'll give you a hint: it's not the WCE. All you're doing is making additional unnecessary competition.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They will absolutely leach off each other. Victoria's only willing to build one or two SkyTrains per election cycle, $8 billion at most; again, Surrey to Chilliwack alone would take up that entire budget, so it's either one or the other.

Guess which one they'll go with? I'll give you a hint: it's not the WCE. All you're doing is making additional unnecessary competition.

Skytrain will still fall under Translink. Why would it not?
Heavy rail, not Skytrain would fall under WCE.

So, the way I see it, by the time a changeover would happen, it would be at least 10 years before WCE puts forth any sort of extension or new route. By then, maybe the Skytrain has been built out enough to add to WCE.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Take the funding of WCE from Translink. Spin WCE and that money into a separate entity that reports to the province. Let that entity plan out and request funds for expansions. That is how GO/Metrolinx did it.

I like that idea but would do it a bit differently.

WCE is a shell company they have a few employees but contract out maintenance and train engineers.

The province has another shell of a railway BC Rail. Who have revenue of just under $30M a year.

There website is at: https://bcrco.com/ (including their financial statements).

BC Rail owns the rail line up to Prince George, that is leased to CN. They also own the line that connects Port of Vancouver Roberts Bank terminal to the rest of the rail network.

In addition to all of that BC Rail retains the rights to run passengers trains over the lines it leases to CN.

Merge WCE into BC Rail. Then give it an expanded mandate.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The same BC Rail that hasn't had passenger service since '02? Don't count on it.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Skytrain will still fall under Translink. Why would it not?
Heavy rail, not Skytrain would fall under WCE.

So, the way I see it, by the time a changeover would happen, it would be at least 10 years before WCE puts forth any sort of extension or new route. By then, maybe the Skytrain has been built out enough to add to WCE.

Guess who'd be funding both of them? The province. What's the total amount of money a new/reelected premier gives out? Enough for only one. That's the ceiling.

Again, we get roughly one SkyTrain every election. We've still got UBC, the North Shore, Hastings, Willingdon, 41st, King George and maybe Port Coq or the West End, so that's 35-40 years after 2028, and then it's maybe time to consider the WCE. Splitting it into its own thing doesn't make the queue go any faster.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Guess who'd be funding both of them? The province. What's the total amount of money a new/reelected premier gives out? Enough for only one. That's the ceiling.

Again, we get roughly one SkyTrain every election. We've still got UBC, the North Shore, Hastings, Willingdon, 41st, King George and maybe Port Coq or the West Side, so that's 35-40 years after 2028, and then it's maybe time to consider the WCE. Splitting it into its own thing doesn't make the queue go any faster.

The advantage of splitting it is WCE operates beyond Translink service region with it going out into the valley. It also has some of the bus service that augments WCE during off peek service.

Having WCE with a province wide mandate will allow it take a broader look at planning and potential undertake smaller scale enhancements that may involve a single station beyond Mission or doing something with intercity buses. It addresses the fact Translink has no mandate or focus out in the valley.

Over the past year the province has had BC Transit extend its systems around the province to what amounts to inter-city routes since Greyhound pulled out. I think that is stop gap measure. That is better done with the types of buses used by WCE that city buses.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The same BC Rail that hasn't had passenger service since '02? Don't count on it.

Same BC Rail. The company still exists. It is still a licensed railway with all the regulatory infrastructure to be an inter-provincial railway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by casper

The advantage of splitting it is WCE operates beyond Translink service region with it going out into the valley. It also has some of the bus service that augments WCE during off peek service.

Having WCE with a province wide mandate will allow it take a broader look at planning and potential undertake smaller scale enhancements that may involve a single station beyond Mission or doing something with intercity buses. It addresses the fact Translink has no mandate or focus out in the valley.

Over the past year the province has had BC Transit extend its systems around the province to what amounts to inter-city routes since Greyhound pulled out. I think that is stop gap measure. That is better done with the types of buses used by WCE that city buses.

It only goes to Mission because they pay TransLink an additional $650m subsidy to get service. No extra mandate, no subscription fee.

Posters keep bringing up GO, well, it handles trains and buses across the entire region and local buses in certain areas. So BC Transit doing Greyhound service isn't exactly unprecedented.
Would a separate Lower Mainland authority acting as a middleman improve small-scale flexibility outside the GVRD? Possibly, depending on implementation; it definitely won't mean 2WAD to Chilliwack by 2050 like swimmer's hoping for.

Originally Posted by casper

Same BC Rail. The company still exists. It is still a licensed railway with all the regulatory infrastructure to be an inter-provincial railway.

And yet it isn't.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Are you saying the province could not nationalize it? I am saying that if they wanted to, they could, but there isn't a need to as the WCE has been forgotten.

As far as the card, having a card that works across the province makes sense. Having it "owned" by one local transit agency does not if that is the goal.

Technically the province couldn't nationalize anything, because only the federal government can do that. Could the provincial government take the WCE operations from TransLink and put it with a different Crown corporation (either a new one, or BC Rail)? Probably, yes.

Could they take the freight tracks from CP to be able to run the service all day? That seems extremely doubtful. The freight use is far more important to the provincial economy than a few thousand passengers travelling from the suburbs. It wouldn't make any sense to do that, and CP would probably win in court. Just assume that somehow the province could prevail, the compensation to CP would make the entire passenger operation the most subsidized in North America.

Would any political party consider a process like that? Also very doubtful. It's clear the NDP aren't stepping in to save the Island line without serious federal cash, so they're not into foolhardy transportation expenditures. They also don't seem to have a problem with the way that TransLink are managing WCE. And the BC Liberals are the ones who closed down BC Rail and leased the tracks to CN for 60 years, winding up the passenger service in the process. So they seem unlikely to want to support a new provincial passenger service.

And one card to take all BC Transit, and the ferries? In my book it barely rates a '1' on the scale of 1 to 10 important things to make transit better in BC. It's not that difficult to get a card or buy a ticket, especially now there's this thing called The Internet.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It only goes to Mission because they pay TransLink an additional $650m subsidy to get service. No extra mandate, no extra subscription fee.

If posters keep bringing up GO, well, it handles trains and buses across the entire region and local buses in certain areas. So BC Transit doing Greyhound service isn't exactly unprecedented.
Would a separate Lower Mainland authority acting as a middleman improve flexibility? Possibly, depending on implementation; it definitely won't mean 2WAD to Chilliwack by 2050 like swimmer's hoping for.

Studies are good and important but you honestly have to demonstrate there is demand before you start building new lines. Intercity buses from Chilliwack to the existing WCE or even to downtown is one way of doing that.

I would see it have a broad mandate. There is potential to connect Squamish to the lower mainland. Initially with inter-city bus that with integrated fair structure with local transit at both ends. If volume warrants potentially switching to rail (on lines that BC rail owns).