O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[TransitZilla]

Crews were working on laying ties between South Keys and Greenboro today for the future NB track. Also some work underway at the Elwood Diamond bridge (which I think is probably likely on the critical path for completion).

[ponyboycurtis]

AHHH!... i finally sorted what the tarps around the South Keys station were about.

There are spraying fire coating onto all the upper ironworks. So the tarps are a proofing against contamination and floatsam/jetsam etc making its way around the site.

I had a chat with a worker earlier today.

[lrt's friend]

I drove out to Riverside South on Sunday. They are still grading the right of way and laying more stone. Winter is coming soon. Are we going to have the track laid before then? If not, I cannot see this project being completed before the start of the next academic year.

I still see Bowesville Station on a slope, which is truly strange. And it appears that the stations do not offer weather protection for the most of the length of the trains. Wait for the wind to be ripping, the rain pouring and the snow flying. It will be unpleasant at those stations.

Also, progress at Greenboro station has been at a glacial pace.

The big question? How will we address the last mile problem? For my trip on Sunday, the train doesn't serve either my start or end point. The walk is too far at both ends and hourly bus frequency is unacceptable.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I drove out to Riverside South on Sunday. They are still grading the right of way and laying more stone. Winter is coming soon. Are we going to have the track laid before then? If not, I cannot see this project being completed before the start of the next academic year.

I still see Bowesville Station on a slope, which is truly strange. And it appears that the stations do not offer weather protection for the most of the length of the trains. Wait for the wind to be ripping, the rain pouring and the snow flying. It will be unpleasant at those stations.

We hear a lot of complaints about weather and wind protection at Line 1 stations, but at least frequency is high (for the train, at least, not connecting buses. Waiting 12 minutes in an open air station will be far less tolerable.

Also, progress at Greenboro station has been at a glacial pace.

The big question? How will we address the last mile problem? For my trip on Sunday, the train doesn't serve either my start or end point. The walk is too far at both ends.

Last mile? Car.

I wish they would focus their attention on finishing South Keys to Bayview to get that done ASAP and return service to those who had been using the line for the 20 years. The south extension can wait.

This City is so focused on serving the suburbs that they forget or don't care about existing riders. We had 20k riding Line 2 before between the opening of Confed and Covid. How many of those 20k are riding the dismal R2? Then they wonder why we're all so frustrated with OC Transpo and ridership is not picking-up. It's not just the Feds slow return to work, it's the alienation of the long time customers.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Last mile? Car.

I wish they would focus their attention on finishing South Keys to Bayview to get that done ASAP and return service to those who had been using the line for the 20 years. The south extension can wait.

This City is so focused on serving the suburbs that they forget or don't care about existing riders. We had 20k riding Line 2 before between the opening of Confed and Covid. How many of those 20k are riding the dismal R2? Then they wonder why we're all so frustrated with OC Transpo and ridership is not picking-up. It's not just the Feds slow return to work, it's the alienation of the long time customers.

I can't have a car at both ends, so obviously we end up with an unusable train system for most suburban trips.

After my infamous 1hr 40m experience with R2 because there was no hope in timing transfers, I have given up on R2 and have driven instead when I have been going in that direction. I'd rather pay exorbitant parking than putting up with the R2 unreliability.

It seems to me that the number of possible transit trips that are convenient are getting smaller all the time.

We need a team of people out there assessing efficiency of the system and polling customer complaints and looking for real solutions to improve transit travel times and reduce transfer wait times. It is stupid how we expect most trips to require the use of the Confed line. Our city is bigger than what one transit line can possibly offer efficiently.

While I live near the airport, it is crazy that I am expected to get to the CTC using the Confed Line via Bayview. Not even close to a straight line. This can never offer timely service.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I can't have a car at both ends, so obviously we end up with an unusable train system for most suburban trips.

After my infamous 1hr 40m experience with R2 because there was no hope in timing transfers, I have given up on R2 and have driven instead when I have been going in that direction. I'd rather pay exorbitant parking than putting up with the R2 unreliability.

It seems to me that the number of possible transit trips that are convenient are getting smaller all the time.

We need a team of people out there assessing efficiency of the system and polling customer complaints and looking for real solutions to improve transit travel times and reduce transfer wait times. It is stupid how we expect most trips to require the use of the Confed line. Our city is bigger than what one transit line can possibly offer efficiently.

While I live near the airport, it is crazy that I am expected to get to the CTC using the Confed Line via Bayview. Not even close to a straight line. This can never offer timely service.

The best solution for the train is having it be the main connector between the city, but then utilizing BRT or effective bus routes that feed off the train. Have those buses come every 15 minutes right after a train is expected to arrive, to give people a window in case of any small delays. The transfer to bus after arriving to the last train stop should be an effective solution to that. Also, they need to encourage biking to the stations too. Each station needs to have automated locking bike racks so even if its paid (like between $2-$3 a day), the incentive is there. I used to do that all the time when I lived abroad, it was pretty efficient.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We hear a lot of complaints about weather and wind protection at Line 1 stations, but at least frequency is high (for the train, at least, not connecting buses. Waiting 12 minutes in an open air station will be far less tolerable.



Last mile? Car.

I wish they would focus their attention on finishing South Keys to Bayview to get that done ASAP and return service to those who had been using the line for the 20 years. The south extension can wait.

This City is so focused on serving the suburbs that they forget or don't care about existing riders. We had 20k riding Line 2 before between the opening of Confed and Covid. How many of those 20k are riding the dismal R2? Then they wonder why we're all so frustrated with OC Transpo and ridership is not picking-up. It's not just the Feds slow return to work, it's the alienation of the long time customers.

This is such a painfully true statement. The work should have been parsed to go from Bayview to South Keys, Airport to South Keys and then stations name that I don't even care about in a field to South Keys. Not so much a 3 stage project exactly but just parlaying your workers as such. I've pointed out before how I only see a half dozen workers at time at both South Keys and Greenboro. It's insane how easily this could have happened from the comfort of my Corinthian leather computer chair.

RE: wind protection on Line 1.... once L1 and L3 are interlined, in between Lincoln Fields and Blair we should be seeing 2 or 2 1/2 minute service correct? That is my understanding. That would really negate the relatively small train cars and platforms in the central area.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

This is such a painfully true statement. The work should have been parsed to go from Bayview to South Keys, Airport to South Keys and then stations name that I don't even care about in a field to South Keys. Not so much a 3 stage project exactly but just parlaying your workers as such. I've pointed out before how I only see a half dozen workers at time at both South Keys and Greenboro. It's insane how easily this could have happened from the comfort of my Corinthian leather computer chair.

RE: wind protection on Line 1.... once L1 and L3 are interlined, in between Lincoln Fields and Blair we should be seeing 2 or 2 1/2 minute service correct? That is my understanding. That would really negate the relatively small train cars and platforms in the central area.

You are being very optimistic. I don't see this happening. We were supposed to get 3 minute frequency and ended up with 5 minute frequency. Unless we get a big bump in ridership, why would they improve frequency beyond that?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You are being very optimistic. I don't see this happening. We were supposed to get 3 minute frequency and ended up with 5 minute frequency. Unless we get a big bump in ridership, why would they improve frequency beyond that?

Because now the trains will go to Orleans. The City wants to offer primo service to areas that don't use transit outside of rush hour.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Because now the trains will go to Orleans. The City wants to offer primo service to areas that don't use transit outside of rush hour.

The vast majority of Orleans residents don't live within walking distance of the line. We can hope for a ridership bump, but I wouldn't count on it. The same lousy bus connections will remain, and many bus routes will be further truncated, meaning that the bus routes will have even fewer transit destinations. I am not holding my breath that local buses will be improved. I have long advocated for 2 way loops so that local buses can depart to the same neighbourhoods on on offset schedules so that 30 minute frequency can actually be 15 minute departures from the LRT station. Sometimes you might take the long way around the loop, but the worst thing about transfers is the waiting time. We don't have the creativity to consider whether this is possible in places like Orleans. I contend that Orleans is the perfect place to experiment with 2 way loops.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The vast majority of Orleans residents don't live within walking distance of the line. We can hope for a ridership bump, but I wouldn't count on it. The same lousy bus connections will remain, and many bus routes will be further truncated, meaning that the bus routes will have even fewer transit destinations. I am not holding my breath that local buses will be improved. I have long advocated for 2 way loops so that local buses can depart to the same neighbourhoods on on offset schedules so that 30 minute frequency can actually be 15 minute departures from the LRT station. Sometimes you might take the long way around the loop, but the worst thing about transfers is the waiting time. We don't have the creativity to consider whether this is possible in places like Orleans. I contend that Orleans is the perfect place to experiment with 2 way loops.

I didn't say anything about ridership or improved bus connections. I'm saying the City will want to run frequent, mostly empty trains, to Orleans because the City's focus is not to build the most efficient transit system (i.e. where people actually use transit), it's only to serve suburbs.

In my experience living in Fallingbrook, bus service was good. Always on time, every half hour. Which is fine when you leave home and plan what time you get to the bus stop, but not as much when coming back. Also, fine as long as your destination is Place d'Orleans of Blair/O-Train and have a lot of time to kill.

Spending Billions converting perfectly functional commuter bus spines will not result in increased ridership. Driving is instilled in the suburban mindset, in large part because of the auto-centricity of how our suburbs our built. I honestly think bike lanes would have more of an impact on reducing car trips, but it is worth re-jigging some bus lines to serve detonations within the suburbs, not just milk runs to the O-Train.

Rapid transit in urban areas with mixed-incomes would have a far more significant impact on transit ridership. St. Laurent to Lincoln Fields will probably prove this, but those stats will never be released because it goes against the City's message and goals.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I didn't say anything about ridership or improved bus connections. I'm saying the City will want to run frequent, mostly empty trains, to Orleans because the City's focus is not to build the most efficient transit system (i.e. where people actually use transit), it's only to serve suburbs.

In my experience living in Fallingbrook, bus service was good. Always on time, every half hour. Which is fine when you leave home and plan what time you get to the bus stop, but not as much when coming back. Also, fine as long as your destination is Place d'Orleans of Blair/O-Train and have a lot of time to kill.

Spending Billions converting perfectly functional commuter bus spines will not result in increased ridership. Driving is instilled in the suburban mindset, in large part because of the auto-centricity of how our suburbs our built. I honestly think bike lanes would have more of an impact on reducing car trips, but it is worth re-jigging some bus lines to serve detonations within the suburbs, not just milk runs to the O-Train.

Rapid transit in urban areas with mixed-incomes would have a far more significant impact on transit ridership. St. Laurent to Lincoln Fields will probably prove this, but those stats will never be released because it goes against the City's message and goals.

I realize that the suburbs are auto-centric, but we need to find a way to wean some people out of cars even in the suburbs. Part of the answer is cycling, but that is limited because of our climate. So, we need to have a multi-prong approach, which includes transit, since it is not as weather dependent as cycling. We have available markets including teens, college and university students. With decent service, those could be our future transit users.

While we need to improve our urban transit service, our traditional urban area is relatively small. The majority of the population is increasingly suburban, so if we simply give up on the suburbs, our ability to grow ridership is going to be small.

What we need is a network of frequent routes. Those frequent routes will naturally be more dense in the urban area, but that web needs to extend into the suburbs. We have already seen that it is possible to do this with service on Innes Road for example.

We need a group of politicians and transit planners to work together to build a frequent network that serves most of the city. Of course, residential areas will be served with less frequent service but still needs better connections to our very expensive LRT line.

Other cities have proven that more frequent service will grow ridership even in a suburban environment. For example, Brampton, an overwhelmingly suburban city.

We cannot just give up.

Since this thread is about the Trillium Line, this is especially critical that our bus connections be better. Just look at the location of the three southern stations. They are presently totally dependent on people arriving from neighbourhoods that are beyond walking distance. Park n Rides are inefficient methods of bringing people to trains. So, how do we bring people to these very expensive trains? Are we going to have safe cycle routes to the stations? Are we going to have efficient bus transfers? If we don't, those trains will be empty. We cannot depend on building ridership simply from people reverse commuting from the city. That is ridiculous. Most who will use the south end of the Trillium Line will be living out there. A 12 minute train that dumps passengers into a Park n Ride lot or an empty field is going to fail. It is unrealistic to expect towers out there given the proximity to the airport runways.

[ponyboycurtis]

It's almost like the Trillium line is like a GO train with the southern and airport extension.

Adding Walkley and Gladstone is still pretty helpful. I miss riding Line 2... Frequency aside it was a such a nice train car with massive picture windows. They took it offline shortly after I moved to South Keys. I still walk to Greenboro station regularly. I can get to South Keys in 15 minutes. Loblaws and Greenboro is a short walk beyond that.

I am mildly annoyed and disappointed that Greenboro platform doesn't appear to have any type of overhead cover or sheltering once you walk off the bridge. The platform is also not even close to being centered with the bridge. Given that the park and ride lot is almost full even with reduced ridership these days I would have expected this station to be more than a concrete sidewalk adjacent to a set of train tracks. I guess we will see what undersized and unheated bus shelters they stick against the fence with a much too narrow passage in front.

Then you go over to Walkley station that has this insanely massive fully enclosed area with high ceilings and glass walls to descend from the road... and the platform will seemingly be just another sidewalk adjacent to train tracks.

It makes me really appreciate how well built and practical the SE Transitway is.

Line 2 feels more like inter-urban rail then intra-urban rail based on what I am seeing so far.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

It's almost like the Trillium line is like a GO train with the southern and airport extension.

Adding Walkley and Gladstone is still pretty helpful. I miss riding Line 2... Frequency aside it was a such a nice train car with massive picture windows. They took it offline shortly after I moved to South Keys. I still walk to Greenboro station regularly. I can get to South Keys in 15 minutes. Loblaws and Greenboro is a short walk beyond that.

I am mildly annoyed and disappointed that Greenboro platform doesn't appear to have any type of overhead cover or sheltering once you walk off the bridge. The platform is also not even close to being centered with the bridge. Given that the park and ride lot is almost full even with reduced ridership these days I would have expected this station to be more than a concrete sidewalk adjacent to a set of train tracks. I guess we will see what undersized and unheated bus shelters they stick against the fence with a much too narrow passage in front.

Then you go over to Walkley station that has this insanely massive fully enclosed area with high ceilings and glass walls to descend from the road... and the platform will seemingly be just another sidewalk adjacent to train tracks.

It makes me really appreciate how well built and practical the SE Transitway is.

Line 2 feels more like inter-urban rail then intra-urban rail based on what I am seeing so far.

Truth! Shelter at the Trillium Line stations will be limited whereas the Transitway stations generally have much better weather protection.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

It's almost like the Trillium line is like a GO train with the southern and airport extension.

Adding Walkley and Gladstone is still pretty helpful. I miss riding Line 2... Frequency aside it was a such a nice train car with massive picture windows. They took it offline shortly after I moved to South Keys. I still walk to Greenboro station regularly. I can get to South Keys in 15 minutes. Loblaws and Greenboro is a short walk beyond that.

I am mildly annoyed and disappointed that Greenboro platform doesn't appear to have any type of overhead cover or sheltering once you walk off the bridge. The platform is also not even close to being centered with the bridge. Given that the park and ride lot is almost full even with reduced ridership these days I would have expected this station to be more than a concrete sidewalk adjacent to a set of train tracks. I guess we will see what undersized and unheated bus shelters they stick against the fence with a much too narrow passage in front.

Then you go over to Walkley station that has this insanely massive fully enclosed area with high ceilings and glass walls to descend from the road... and the platform will seemingly be just another sidewalk adjacent to train tracks.

It makes me really appreciate how well built and practical the SE Transitway is.

Line 2 feels more like inter-urban rail then intra-urban rail based on what I am seeing so far.

Greenboro is limited to the north by the location of the switch to the south connecting track, which is why the platform extension goes so far south. The existing platform is basically as far north as it could be.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Catenary

I am mildly annoyed and disappointed that Greenboro platform doesn't appear to have any type of overhead cover or sheltering once you walk off the bridge..

There is going to be shelter, it's sitting on the platform, just not assembled yet

While they aren't exciting architecturally, (same shelters as the buses at Hurdman and Tunney's) I'd argue the shelters they are a slight improvement over what the line had before. They are fully enclosed with doors unlike the old shelters. I'm hoping they have heaters as well, there's no reason they couldn't, as oc transpo has installed heaters in shelters like that before at Fallowfield and Eagleson

My complaint is that Greenboro will only have a single shelter, as most other platforms will have three according to the renderings

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

I would love to know what the deal with this tarp is. This photo is a few days old and I'm almost positive when I went by yesterday the tarps extended all the way down.

Any ideas on what they could need this for?

Also.. if anyone is wondering why the southern extension is delayed by a year it's because nobody works here. Granted there is the lower interior section I can't see but I have seen at a maximum 2 or 3 people at a given time. No trucks or activity in the yard etc.

It would have been nice if they staged the work in such a way that we could have had Greenboro to Bayview service by now and the rest of the work south of that to follow.

By the time this project goes live that will probably be 95% of your catchment anyways aside from park and ride and South Keys station itself.

Poor planning if you ask me. Sucks to be a foreign Carlton student who booked housing based on a school brochure.

I know some of the phasing is based on crew planning (i.e. siloed specialized crews work on portions of the line at a time.

And maybe I've just answered my following critical observation:

I've noticed alllll around town lately, these large, linear construction sites are opened up all at once along the entire length (see: 417 expansion, o-train line expansions)

Disruptive closures begin, and then demo, or partial demo is performed (exploration, likely) and then the site sits, empty, with nothing going on but the disruptive closure, for literally years.

Every time I drive by the stretch around the Kent exit (eastbound) on the 417 I flinch at the partially dismantled sheet metal wall with partially loosened pieces that looks like it could blow onto the highway at any moment. These pieces were loosened around this time last year, and remain partially dismantled, and a lane of the Kent Exit STILL closed, with no more work occurring there for an entire year. Try doing this to a local street in the Market.

Likewise for the sections of lane closed before and adjacent to Parkdale, with no work occurring for the past 12 months.

Every time I enter the highway and have to merge, westbound, only to have that lane open up again, with no apparent work inbetween, I flinch.

I also really feel for the people living along the open pit construction on Richmond Road. The trench was trenched about 16 months ago? With disruptive road realignments, steel plates, really poor pedestrian links, etc.

Could these jobs ALL have occurred in shorter sections, blasting away until substantially complete, before moving on to the next and leaving their local occupants in peace?

But alas, I seem to have answered my own question. Opening giant pits and closing highways 10km long is more efficient somehow, even if work is occurring on 10% of the area at once.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

There is going to be shelter, it's sitting on the platform, just not assembled yet

While they aren't exciting architecturally, (same shelters as the buses at Hurdman and Tunney's) I'd argue the shelters they are a slight improvement over what the line had before. They are fully enclosed with doors unlike the old shelters. I'm hoping they have heaters as well, there's no reason they couldn't, as oc transpo has installed heaters in shelters like that before at Fallowfield and Eagleson

That's fine in winter, but in the summer, those are human ovens.

The beauty of the old Transitway Stations is/was that we had a mix of enclosed and covered open air areas with plenty of benches. Those were extremely well designed and considered usability throughout the year.

I don't understand why they could not keep the old Transitway awnings at the Blair bus platforms.

The City always loved saying that the Transitway was designed to be converted to rail, but that was clearly not true. The entire thing (other than parts of St. Laurent and Blair) was ripped-out and rebuilt. Based on those metrics, we could say that any road or highway was "built" for rail conversion.

[Richard Eade]

I agree that the old Red-tube and Glass Transitway shelters had some good points in their design.

I liked that the metal was mounted up on a concrete knee-wall. This saved it from a lot of damage during winter maintenance operations. Plows and salt would have destroyed the Red-tube and Glass in no time, had it not been protected. That said, the knee-wall could have been thicker, or included a suitable ‘lip’ so that it could also provide some additional seating.

I appreciated the fairly large amount of benches provided in the old shelters, and that they didn’t have dividers every few feet (to prevent lying down). There could have been some places that provided arm rests, however, because they are helpful to some who have difficulty getting up from sitting.

As stated, there was a combination of closed and open sections. The closed sections were relatively small, so they were easier to heat. [The long shelters provided at the ‘Temporary’ Baseline Station are useless for heat.]

I found that the glass roofs of the old Red-tube and Glass shelters was a bonus. The extra light they let in made the shelter seem less confining. When OC Transpo began exchanging the glass panels for aluminum ones (because of cost) the shelters began to feel much more ‘cave-like’. [I find it interesting that glass panels are again being used for over-head cover at the LRT stations. I suppose that OC Transpo figures that the replacement cost will fall on RTM. Of course, a big difference is that the new ‘shelters’ don’t use curved glass – so the new panels are much less expensive.]

But those old shelters were not perfect. The ‘Water-fall’ design of the roof was just that; a water-fall – or snow-/ice-fall – when there was precipitation. This was not pleasant for transit customers who wound up getting stalled during boarding – with water, or snow, being poured down their neck. The over-head shelter should have extended to over the buses. [Unfortunately, these might have needed modification when OC Transpo switched to Double-Deckers, since they would, likely, not have been originally built much higher than the, then current, buses.]

[I know that some will now bring up the tragic collision of the Double-Decker with the Westboro Station’s overhang. I suggest that, had the stations been properly designed, there would have been a proper ‘deflector’ included when the station was built. Such a safety requirement would have absolutely prevented any vehicle from mounting the platform.]

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I found that the glass roofs of the old Red-tube and Glass shelters was a bonus. The extra light they let in made the shelter seem less confining. When OC Transpo began exchanging the glass panels for aluminum ones (because of cost) the shelters began to feel much more ‘cave-like’. [I find it interesting that glass panels are again being used for over-head cover at the LRT stations. I suppose that OC Transpo figures that the replacement cost will fall on RTM. Of course, a big difference is that the new ‘shelters’ don’t use curved glass – so the new panels are much less expensive.]

Bonus, the curved glass was tinted I believe, which reduced the oven effect in summer.

But those old shelters were not perfect. The ‘Water-fall’ design of the roof was just that; a water-fall – or snow-/ice-fall – when there was precipitation. This was not pleasant for transit customers who wound up getting stalled during boarding – with water, or snow, being poured down their neck. The over-head shelter should have extended to over the buses. [Unfortunately, these might have needed modification when OC Transpo switched to Double-Deckers, since they would, likely, not have been originally built much higher than the, then current, buses.]

Some sort of gutter or water collection system should have been part of the design.

[I know that some will now bring up the tragic collision of the Double-Decker with the Westboro Station’s overhang. I suggest that, had the stations been properly designed, there would have been a proper ‘deflector’ included when the station was built. Such a safety requirement would have absolutely prevented any vehicle from mounting the platform.]

I'm with you on that one. Deflectors or bollards at the end of the platform could have prevented these tragedies.

Worth noting that the roof structures stopped many buses over the years from running over people on the platform. It damaged buses significantly, but only resulted in a few minor injuries. Of course, bollards or deflectors could have once again done the same.