Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[CreamOfpumpkin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The continued unity of the federation?

Maybe the sweetheart deals work for the people inside the borders, as a pacifier. Let's not act like they do not alienate the rest of the country. At the end of the day, there is still a large class of people that gets to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody likes a Cake-Eater -Mighty Ducks

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CreamOfpumpkin

Maybe the sweetheart deals work for the people inside the borders, as a pacifier. Let's not act like they do not alienate the rest of the country. At the end of the day, there is still a large class of people that gets to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody likes a Cake-Eater -Mighty Ducks

The end game for the central government is the continued existence of the federation as an intact entity.

On this question especially, that is basically the only measure of success.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think there was one. It might be a sister project to that where the West side of Montreal joins Ontario

(which BTW I would never endorse. Quebec is essential to my country, and to my definition as a Canadian....much more so than any other province, in fact).

There were these guys, though they never had much success:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_acadien

They weren't really about joining Quebec per se, more like creating better political leverage so that Acadiens could keep their options open in case Quebec did become independent.

As for those maps based on the polls, it's interesting how while western Montreal is less dark than other areas of Quebec on most questions, it still doesn't generally have the same colours as, say, Toronto or Ottawa.

The Quebec views of things are still present and even prevalent there, just less strongly-held.

Whereas northern New Brunswick aligns with Quebec a lot more. It is more
"Quebec-ish" than western Montreal is "Ontario-ish".

Another interesting observation is that Ontario east of Ottawa, in spite of having a large proportion of francophones, doesn't align with Quebec on most issues. Unlike northern New Brunswick.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

From a few years ago, but still interesting maps based on polling:

https://imgur.com/a/SaU91?fbclid=IwAR3vn-NMeYqB3KZo5Ra7FaA85CyPufQ55opyRB_axeRdrG_LeI6FAO1nhjo

Toronto kind of sticks out in the ROC for its opposition to the war. Even Vancouverites were somewhat supportive.

Also funny that my riding of Eglinton-Lawrence was one of the few that was gung ho about staying in Afghanistan. It might have been due to the large Orthodox Jewish population wanting to stick it to the Muslim world, rather than strong feelings about Canada’s role in the war, though.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think there was one. It might be a sister project to that where the West side of Montreal joins Ontario

(which BTW I would never endorse. Quebec is essential to my country, and to my definition as a Canadian....much more so than any other province, in fact).

The trade is one-for-one: Peninsule-Acadie for West Island.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The trade is one-for-one: Peninsule-Acadie for West Island.

The ultimate family-over-money career move!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The trade is one-for-one: Peninsule-Acadie for West Island.

I suggest we up the ante.

La Peninsule for the West Island and The Madawaska region for Gatineau.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I suggest we up the ante.

La Peninsule for the West Island and The Madawaska region for Gatineau.

Naah, we keep Gatineau, but we want Parlee Beach too!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Naah, we keep Gatineau, but we want Parlee Beach too!

BTW, mirroring the Mountain/Montagne discussion. Parlee Beach is actually named for an anglophone, T. Babbitt Parlee, a lawyer, former mayor of Moncton and provincial cabinet minister who was killed in a plane crash in the 1950s.

[Dengler Avenue]

Take MRC Pontiac instead of Gatineau.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Naah, we keep Gatineau, but we want Parlee Beach too!

Parlee Beach is hardly francophone these days. No deal.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I suggest we up the ante.

La Peninsule for the West Island and The Madawaska region for Gatineau.

I don't see Gatineau being reasonable. Pontiac, on the other hand.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There were these guys, though they never had much success:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_acadien

They weren't really about joining Quebec per se, more like creating better political leverage so that Acadiens could keep their options open in case Quebec did become independent.

The best for the Acadiens, long term, would probably be to secede from New Brunswick and form their own province. That's what the Francophones from the majority German-speaking Canton of Bern did in the 1970s: they seceded and formed the new Canton of Jura. In India it's also frequent to split states to better reflect local linguistic sensitivities.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Another interesting observation is that Ontario east of Ottawa, in spite of having a large proportion of francophones, doesn't align with Quebec on most issues.

Yeah, I saw that too. They seem "lost for the cause".

Talking of which, I always had a question, whose answer is difficult to find, I wonder if anyone knows: who decided the exact border between Québec and Ontario? Who and when? Why is it exactly where it is? Why wasn't it a few more miles south, or north? Regarding the Ottawa River, it seems obvious, they just chose the local large river. But where the border diverges from the river and runs south of it, why is it exactly where it is? Why didn't they, for example, include Cornwall inside the province of Québec? Was it based on the linguistic set up back then? Or did it have other motivations?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The best for the Acaniens, long term, would probably be to secede from New Brunswick and form their own province. That's what the Francophones from the majority German-speaking Canton of Bern did in the 1970s: they seceded and formed the new Canton of Jura. In India it's also frequent to split states to better reflect local linguistic sensitivities.

So you're in favour of the West Island seceding from Quebec then. I presume you're OK with Nouveau Quebec also leaving.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Take MRC Pontiac instead of Gatineau.

Deal!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of which, I always had a question, whose answer is difficult to find, I wonder if anyone knows: who decided the exact border between Québec and Ontario? Who and when? Why is it exactly where it is? Why wasn't it a few more miles south, or north? Regarding the Ottawa River, it seems obvious, they just chose the local large river. But where the border diverges from the river and runs south of it, why is it exactly where it is? Why didn't they, for example, include Cornwall inside the province of Québec? Was it based on the linguistic set up back then? Or did it have other motivations?

Ontario and Quebec were both part of the British territory of Quebec from the Conquest until 1790-something (1791? 1792? Can't remember), when it was split into Upper Canada and Lower Canada which later became Ontario and Quebec. The boundary would have been drawn then. I believe that at the time Vaudreuil-Soulanges (the triangle shaped area of Quebec that juts into Ontario on the south side of the Ottawa River) was already owned by French seigneurs, hence why the border deviated from the Ottawa River at that point. Cornwall was founded just before the partition, in the 1780s, as an anglophone settlement, so they wouldn't have been put it with Lower Canada.

The area of Ontario east of Ottawa was originally settled by anglophones, actually. The area was mostly swamp, however, so the British settlers didn't settle it very densely (it remained mostly empty into the late 19th century even as the rest of Eastern Ontario developed). Because of this it had cheap land which was attractive to francophone emigrants from Quebec who started moving there in the late 19th century and became the majority. That's why so many of these now-francophone towns, like Rockland, Alfred, Hawkesbury, Casselman, etc have English names, they started out as anglo settlements.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So you're in favour of the West Island seceding from Quebec then. I presume you're OK with Nouveau Quebec also leaving.

Not being Québécois myself, I have no opinion on the issue. But I think there are quite a few Québécois who would gladly get rid of the West Island (preferably BEFORE the next referendum ).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I believe that at the time Vaudreuil-Soulanges (the triangle shaped area of Quebec that juts into Ontario on the south side of the Ottawa River) was already owned by French seigneurs, hence why the border deviated from the Ottawa River at that point. Cornwall was founded just before the partition, in the 1780s, as an anglophone settlement, so they wouldn't have been put it with Lower Canada.

Interesting explanation. I'd be curious to see how far south the seigneurie system extended. I mean, which seigneurie was the most southerly one?

I've always found it puzzling why the French Canadians never really settled what's today Ontario before 1760. It's almost like they treated it as unfarmable territory, when it has in fact better farming potential due to its more southerly location.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not being Québécois myself, I have no opinion on the issue. But I think there are quite a few Québécois who would gladly get rid of the West Island (preferably BEFORE the next referendum ).

Imagine trading Montreal’s logistics and biotech hub for a rural peninsula with a population pyramid like the Donbas.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not being Québécois myself, I have no opinion on the issue. But I think there are quite a few Québécois who would gladly get rid of the West Island (preferably BEFORE the next referendum ).

They probably exist but they are dummies for thinking that.

The West Island of Montreal is a hugely important economic area in many key sectors.

It also isn't wholly anglophone, and is instead roughly one third anglophone, one third francophone and one third "allophone" (immigrant languages), with some allophones leaning more to English and some leaning more to French.

Current Québec Premier François Legault is a francophone from the West Island.

Trading it for the Péninsule Acadienne is not a good or fair deal, given the population and economic disparity as the péninsule is declining and economically stagnant.

Anyway, none of this is going to happen.

Under the Canadian Constitution a province's borders cannot change without the province's consent, and Quebec even has a law that prevents its own government from ceding any territory to the feds or another province. Quebec won't even cede Quebec-owned land to the federal government to complete portions of Gatineau Park here in the Outaouais, even though the land would still definitely be part of Quebec - but owned by the feds.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interesting explanation. I'd be curious to see how far south the seigneurie system extended. I mean, which seigneurie was the most southerly one?

I've always found it puzzling why the French Canadians never really settled what's today Ontario before 1760. It's almost like they treated it as unfarmable territory, when it has in fact better farming potential due to its more southerly location.

I believe the only seigneurie outside of present-day Quebec (Lower Canada at the time) was at L'Orignal which is on the south side of the Ottawa River west of Hawkesbury, Ontario.

I think our friend gave a pretty good explanation: the area around Rigaud was settled with French Canadians long before places in present-day Eastern Ontario were, with the exception of the small Seigneurie de Longueuil at L'Orignal.

In keeping with British colonization practices at the time, the first settlers of far Eastern Ontario were from the British Isles, and francophones only came later when the population of Quebec boomed and the land in Quebec couldn't sustain all of the growing population. A lot of the anglophones eventually moved out, to other regions of Ontario, Western Canada, or the US.

This is why a lot of the towns in Eastern Ontario (including the ones with francophone majorities) have anglophone names like Hawkesbury, Rockland, Hammond, Wendover, etc.