Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I have been very puzzled reading these articles in Le Devoir (where they say Francophone African students are prevented from coming to Québec by the federal government). I was under the impression Québec was largely responsible for its own immigration policies. Also, why would the federal government prevent those Francophone students from coming? That's pretty odd.

It's at the very least... suspicious.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Or, at least you are indifferent to the cause, but would potentially be pleased if it ever happened.

It's the same as when the convoy was making its way across the country. Acajack wasn't a supporter of it, of course not, but he had no issue with pointing out how it was doing in various areas, how many people were out supporting it, how many people lined the highways at every turn. Updating us frequently. I don't agree with them but just look at how many people do agree with them. Uh huh.

It's the same for any discussion on Quebec wrt separatism, French rights, etc.

Originally Posted by Acajack

English Canadians living in Quebec are not a minority in the true sense of the term.

Wasn't even referring to that minority group. Difficult to keep up with discriminatory legislation in Quebec, I know.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes.

I mean, some of them were setting off lots of bombs and kidnapping people 5-10 years later.

That was in 1970, and I don't think the average Quebecois was into this type of violence, just a few radicals.

I mean PET definitely did not approve, I would guess! And he was Quebecois.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Anglo-Canada would NEVER go for that.

It's a question of rapport de force I suppose. If push came to shove, you can bet a Canadian PM would agree to a citoyenneté québécoise to prevent outright independence of Québec.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Architype

I mean PET definitely did not approve, I would guess! And he was Quebecois.

He wasn't pur laine enough. His motives were always suspect. His middle name was Elliot FFS!

I mean, how could you trust the man............

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Because they were/are trying to quell similar separatist fervor in Scotland. Encouraging one is to encourage another.

Oh I don't think it had anything to do with Scotland. When I read these articles (mid 2000s), Labour was still in power in Scotland, and nobody thought the nationalists could win Scottish elections. Everybody thought that was quite impossible in fact (due to the gerrymandering done by Tony Blair).

No, the way I understood it, it was more in the vein of "take that, Frenchies!" of a certain English press (including The Economist, The Telegraph, who like to please their Tories readership).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Better tell JHikka, then. He seems to think we have millions of allies out there in Anglo-Canada.

Honestly, by and large I don't think people in Anglo-Canada are anti-French language (although some are obviously, and I even met some). From my observations over the years, I have more a feeling Anglo-Canadians have a somewhat sympathetic but naive view of the language situation in Québec. They believe things are fine there for the French language and all is swell.

Of course as the super dominant majority in North America, they cannot even imagine what a daily struggle it is for a minority language in an Anlophone ocean to survive, which is not too surprising. I think also many non-native French speakers have a hard time understanding the difference between French as a curiosity, just an element of folklore and tourism, as in Louisiana and Nova Scottia, vs French as a real living daily language as in Québec, which explains why they think the Québécois tend to "overreact".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Because of the shortage of workers for so many businesses and institutions. It's becoming quite severe in many parts of Canada including in much of Quebec.

What would you do if the rest of the world didn't exist? Obviously the economy would adjust and find a new balance. This idea that there is no other way (TINA) but importing labor from abroad doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Loco101

The difficult part for Quebec and other francophone areas of Canada is getting immigrants who can speak French upon arrival and have the skills, training and education needed. So many immigrants are coming from countries where English has been taught to a certain level but no so with French. The largest French speaking countries outside Europe are in Africa and are quite poor and much of their populations are not highly educated.

Not true at all. France receives tens of thousands of university students from Francophone countries every year. And the country refuses many more. The largest numbers of Francophone university students come from Morocco, Algeria, and Cameroon.

There are now half a billion (half a billion!) people living in the Francophone countries of North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, so even if a tiny % reaches to university, that's still LOTS of tentative highly educated immigrants.

Then there are also highly educated Francophones in many more places outside of Africa that you wouldn't even suspect. There exist French lycées in most countries of the world, who train tens of thousands of high school students every year, usually member of the elites of their respective countries. The Alliances Françaises network is one of the largest language education network in the world, and is booming in many places (for example there has never been so many Indian young people learning French as now, and as a consequence the number of Indian students admitted in French universities has risen a lot in recent years). Vietnam, Cambodia still have large groups of young Francophone students educated every year. Not to mention Latin America.

With a population of just 8 million, frankly the question for Québec's migration is not the size of the recruiting pool. It's large enough for a country of 8 million. The Québec government could offer visas for thousands of Francophone surgeons and doctors for example, and fill all its quotas in just a few weeks (so many Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan trained doctors eager to migrate).

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

He wasn't pur laine enough. His motives were always suspect. His middle name was Elliot FFS!

I mean, how could you trust the man............

C'est bien d'être raciste tant que vous le faites en français.
C'est la vie non ? Quel train en marche. J'ai même un nom français mais j'ai juste
ne peut pas sauter le pas.
(Veuillez excuser mon français)

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Honestly, by and large I don't think people in Anglo-Canada are anti-French language (although some are obviously, and I even met some). From my observations over the years, I have more a feeling Anglo-Canadians have a somewhat sympathetic but naive view of the language situation in Québec. They believe things are fine there for the French language and all is swell.

Of course as the super dominant majority in North America, they cannot even imagine what a daily struggle it is for a minority language in an Anlophone ocean to survive, which is not too surprising. I think also many non-native French speakers have a hard time understanding the difference between French as a curiosity, just an element of folklore and tourism, as in Louisiana and Nova Scottia, vs French as a real living daily language as in Québec, which explains why they think the Québécois tend to "overreact".

I just spent a week back home in Manitoba, and have lived in Quebec since 2001.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Architype

C'est bien d'être résilié tant que vous le faites en français.
C'est la vie non ? Quel train en marche. J'ai même un nom français mais je n'arrive pas à sauter le pas.

Heu... pardon?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by vanatox

Heu... pardon?

Je m'excuse, certaines choses sont perdues dans la traduction. C'est de l'humour, et ma façon de pratiquer mon français et d'embrasser la culture.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Architype

Do you think that Quebecers were less happy back in the 50s / 60s, when Montreal was the dominant, and more primate city in Canada?

If they had been that happy, there wouldn't have been the Quiet Revolution.

And why would they be happy as cheap labor for a dominating majority?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

If they had been that happy, there wouldn't have been the Quiet Revolution.

And why would they be happy as cheap labor for a dominating majority?

I am not saying the situation did not exist, but it is part of the popular narrative now, somewhat exaggerated. Who were these Anglo oppressors, how and why did it begin? I could say that we are all cheap labour, perhaps you, or me; the so-called oppressors are the wealthy class, regardless of language or nationality. I have been to Quebec and I've seen plenty of photos here as well, of very nice looking historic Quebecois towns and cities, they don't have the look of impoverishment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

I just spent a week back home in Manitoba, and have lived in Quebec since 2001.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

You and he are mostly right, but it doesn't take much for the dominant mix of benign indifference and incomprehension to periodically morph into hostility.

I mean we see it on this forum all the time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's a question of rapport de force I suppose. If push came to shove, you can bet a Canadian PM would agree to a citoyenneté québécoise to prevent outright independence of Québec.

It's always a calculation: how little can you give in to Québec without seeing independence support grow too much.

Canada almost got burned with this approach in 1995.

Right now the feds seem to think they can say no to Québec on most anything without any consequences.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Incredible to try this line of mock reasoning given the actually discriminatory bills that Quebec passes through its government.

Quebec is not a country, and I don’t think you feel it should become one.

Mosf of the so-called discriminatory laws in Quebec are precisely defensive measures in order to protect the society that exists in Quebec against the steamroller society of the very real larger country we are a part of.

If Quebec society had not been sabotaged and weakened by that country for much of our history, and the governance structure more in tune with our needs, then the measures you hate would not be needed.

There is no Bill 101-96 in francophone Switzerland.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's the same as when the convoy was making its way across the country. Acajack wasn't a supporter of it, of course not, but he had no issue with pointing out how it was doing in various areas, how many people were out supporting it, how many people lined the highways at every turn. Updating us frequently. I don't agree with them but just look at how many people do agree with them. Uh huh.

And yet the budding anger that provoked the convoy led to Pierre Poilievre becoming a shoo-in for CPC leader with massive rallies across Canada and a good chance of being our nexf PM.

It also played a role in the rise of the PCQ in Quebec.

I prefer realism to denialism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What would you do if the rest of the world didn't exist? Obviously the economy would adjust and find a new balance. This idea that there is no other way (TINA) but importing labor from abroad doesn't make sense.


Not true at all. France receives tens of thousands of university students from Francophone countries every year. And the country refuses many more. The largest numbers of Francophone university students come from Morocco, Algeria, and Cameroon.

There are now half a billion (half a billion!) people living in the Francophone countries of North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, so even if a tiny % reaches to university, that's still LOTS of tentative highly educated immigrants.

Then there are also highly educated Francophones in many more places outside of Africa that you wouldn't even suspect. There exist French lycées in most countries of the world, who train tens of thousands of high school students every year, usually member of the elites of their respective countries. The Alliances Françaises network is one of the largest language education network in the world, and is booming in many places (for example there has never been so many Indian young people learning French as now, and as a consequence the number of Indian students admitted in French universities has risen a lot in recent years). Vietnam, Cambodia still have large groups of young Francophone students educated every year. Not to mention Latin America.

With a population of just 8 million, frankly the question for Québec's migration is not the size of the recruiting pool. It's large enough for a country of 8 million. The Québec government could offer visas for thousands of Francophone surgeons and doctors for example, and fill all its quotas in just a few weeks (so many Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan trained doctors eager to migrate).

100% true.

The problem is that Québec does not control all of its immigration. It has agreements with Ottawa to control part of it and over the years the ratio has gone up and down from one third to two thirds to one half controlled by Québec.

Generally speaking since 1980 Ottawa has been letting Québec control progressively but for some reason lately the feds have become less open to this and are starting þo want to keep more control.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What would you do if the rest of the world didn't exist? Obviously the economy would adjust and find a new balance. This idea that there is no other way (TINA) but importing labor from abroad doesn't make sense.


Not true at all. France receives tens of thousands of university students from Francophone countries every year. And the country refuses many more. The largest numbers of Francophone university students come from Morocco, Algeria, and Cameroon.

There are now half a billion (half a billion!) people living in the Francophone countries of North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, so even if a tiny % reaches to university, that's still LOTS of tentative highly educated immigrants.

Then there are also highly educated Francophones in many more places outside of Africa that you wouldn't even suspect. There exist French lycées in most countries of the world, who train tens of thousands of high school students every year, usually member of the elites of their respective countries. The Alliances Françaises network is one of the largest language education network in the world, and is booming in many places (for example there has never been so many Indian young people learning French as now, and as a consequence the number of Indian students admitted in French universities has risen a lot in recent years). Vietnam, Cambodia still have large groups of young Francophone students educated every year. Not to mention Latin America.

With a population of just 8 million, frankly the question for Québec's migration is not the size of the recruiting pool. It's large enough for a country of 8 million. The Québec government could offer visas for thousands of Francophone surgeons and doctors for example, and fill all its quotas in just a few weeks (so many Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan trained doctors eager to migrate).

100% true.

The problem is that Québec does not control all of its immigration. It has agreements with Ottawa to control part of it and over the years the ratio has gone up and down from one third to two thirds to one half controlled by Québec.

Generally speaking since 1980 Ottawa had been letting Québec control progressively more but for some reason lately the feds have become less open to this and are starting to want to keep more control and tighten things up with Québec and are saying no more often. Inexplicable.