US Metros by flight passengers

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Dallas is also, of course, a hub for American Airlines.

Yes, I was augmenting JManc's list

[nito]

Originally Posted by JManc

The US has a highly developed air network so flights are more spread out among various airports where as most countries, there are one or two more airport entry points. The busiest US airports are airline hubs; Atlanta (Delta), Chicago (United), Dallas (American), San Francisco (United), LA and NYC (several airlines)

The US is far bigger in land area and population relative to its peers so having more airports probably shouldn’t come as a surprise. At the same time it does have a deficient intercity rail network; pre-pandemic, Amtrak’s ridership was 22% of the UK’s intercity rail ridership. It’s a similar comparison for France and Germany.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's accurate. Philadelphia has been de-emphasized as a hub since US Airways merged with American. Because of its very close proximity to the NYC airspace PHL doesn't make an attractive location for a major hub.

This is a weird double-edged sword: while PHL is certainly a smaller hub to American than it was to US Airways, it is American's primary transatlantic hub--JFK is its secondary transatlantic hub.

I'm actually surprised that American hasn't attempted to do more with PHL. Given that PHL isn't slot-restricted and has significantly lower landing fees, there would seem to be more operational flexibility there than JFK. I hope that either American ramps up its PHL operations, or that PHL comes out as a big beneficiary of the JetBlue-Spirit merger due to Spirit's larger presence. I would also love to see a direct flight to Asia at some point in the future. The demographics of Philadelphia's CSA certainly support it in theory.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

This is a weird double-edged sword: while PHL is certainly a smaller hub to American than it was to US Airways, it is American's primary transatlantic hub--JFK is its secondary transatlantic hub.

I'm actually surprised that American hasn't attempted to do more with PHL. Given that PHL isn't slot-restricted and has significantly lower landing fees, there would seem to be more operational flexibility there than JFK. I hope that either American ramps up its PHL operations, or that PHL comes out as a big beneficiary of the JetBlue-Spirit merger due to Spirit's larger presence. I would also love to see a direct flight to Asia at some point in the future. The demographics of Philadelphia's CSA certainly support it in theory.

The challenge for American Airlines is that it has too many hubs on the East Coast, including Miami, Charlotte, DCA, Philadelphia, and JFK. These compete for connecting traffic.

[Steely Dan]

going back to my earlier post about why i think STL should be higher.

below is a map of the 29 busiest airports in the nation (what the FAA deems as "major hubs") by passenger counts.

the big red oval in the middle of the country has none, and pretty damn close to the center of that oval is none other than STL.

TWA knew about it.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

going back to my earlier post about why i think STL should be higher.

below is a map of the 29 busiest airports in the nation (what the FAA deems as "major hubs") by passenger counts.

the big red oval in the middle of the country has none, and pretty damn close to the center of that oval is none other than STL.

TWA knew it.

Whenever I fly from the coast-to-coast, the flight path tends to go across the upper Midwest (MI, WI, MN). Not sure why, but I can't recall the plane every going south of Chicago (the plane usually goes directly over Milwaukee). If there is a weather or geographic reason for this then it makes sense that Detroit and Minneapolis are hubs for logistical reasons. The path also almost always goes past either Denver or SLC. Most often it's Denver, but I do recall going to SLC a couple of times too.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Whenever I fly from the coast-to-coast, the flight path tends to go across the upper Midwest (MI, WI, MN).

a straight line from NYC's city hall to SF's city hall goes directly over the far northside of chicago, up near Loyola U.

a straight line from boston's city hall to LA's city hall passes just south of chicago's loop, down by McComick Place convention center.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Is that tinier green dot supposed to be CVG or is it there by accident?

I don't think Delta completely de-hubbed Cincinnati (majority of flights in/out are still Delta IIRC?) but Detroit and MSP became the primary Midwest hubs after the merger with Northwest.

I thought Southwest has a pretty large presence at both STL (although MDW is WN's biggest Midwest hub) and BNA.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Is that tinier green dot supposed to be CVG or is it there by accident?

that's a mistake.

but it's not too far away from CVG.

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I don't think Delta completely de-hubbed Cincinnati (majority of flights in/out are still Delta IIRC?) but Detroit and MSP became the primary Midwest hubs after the merger with Northwest.

several former midwest hubs have taken it on the chin from airline consolidation:

- STL lost its TWA hub in the merger with american.

- CLE lost its continental hub in the merger with united.

- CVG lost its delta hub in the merger with northwest.

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I thought Southwest has a pretty large presence at both STL (although MDW is WN's biggest Midwest hub) and BNA.

southwest does have a good-sized presence at STL, with a 58% share of the market there, but southwest doesn't do traditional hubs (or so they say).

however, in terms of number of daily flights, STL doesn't even make the top 10 of southwest's busiest stations (it's #13). BNA is #9 though.

the 3 biggies for southwest are denver, chicago (MDW), and vegas, each with over 200 flights/day.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by nito

The US is far bigger in land area and population relative to its peers so having more airports probably shouldn’t come as a surprise. At the same time it does have a deficient intercity rail network

I think that factors into why our intercity rail for the most part, sucks; we've become conditioned to hopping on a flight even over short distances. In TX, they are trying to link Dallas and Houston via HSR and I don't think many care eitherway since there are a zillion Southwest flight going in each direction everyday. And Austin is an easy drive from Houston.

In California, there is no direct route by rail between LA and SF so you either have to drive or fly of which I am sure (like Houston and Dallas) there are a ton of flights each way.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

which I am sure (like Houston and Dallas) there are a ton of flights each way.

i believe LA/SF is the second busiest air route in the nation after NYC/LA.

(or at least was at one point. covid has royally interrupted and messed up all airline passenger data over the past couple years)

[ChiSoxRox]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Whenever I fly from the coast-to-coast, the flight path tends to go across the upper Midwest (MI, WI, MN). Not sure why, but I can't recall the plane every going south of Chicago (the plane usually goes directly over Milwaukee). If there is a weather or geographic reason for this then it makes sense that Detroit and Minneapolis are hubs for logistical reasons. The path also almost always goes past either Denver or SLC. Most often it's Denver, but I do recall going to SLC a couple of times too.

This is the spherical Earth coming into play. Flightpaths, even on a cross-continent scale, will arc poleward to take advantage of the shortening distance between longitude lines.

The straight-line midpoint between SFO (37.6 N) and JFK (40.6 N) is Erickson, Nebraska (41.7 N) and the path just reaches 42 N at Cedar Rapids.

This is also why a direct flight from Seattle to London is 9 hours, but connecting through the East Coast is at least 12 hours combined -- the straight line path from SEA to LHR is bisecting Greenland with the East Coast being almost a right angle turn out of the path.

(There are also weather factors, with the location of the jet stream being a major factor in the precise location of a specific flight path.)

[plinko]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

several former midwest hubs have taken it on the chin from airline consolidation:
- STL lost its TWA hub in the merger with american.
- CLE lost its continental hub in the merger with united.
- CVG lost its delta hub in the merger with northwest.

Pittsburgh was a big USAir hub before it merged with America West. Changed planes there a number of times. Great airport. I seem to recall that CMH (Columbus) was at least a focus city if not a hub for America West for a time.

[bnk]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

This is the spherical Earth coming into play. Flightpaths, even on a cross-continent scale, will arc poleward to take advantage of the shortening distance between longitude lines.

The straight-line midpoint between SFO (37.6 N) and JFK (40.6 N) is Erickson, Nebraska (41.7 N) and the path just reaches 42 N at Cedar Rapids.

This is also why a direct flight from Seattle to London is 9 hours, but connecting through the East Coast is at least 12 hours combined -- the straight line path from SEA to LHR is bisecting Greenland with the East Coast being almost a right angle turn out of the path.

(There are also weather factors, with the location of the jet stream being a major factor in the precise location of a specific flight path.)

Yes correct. First time I flew to Europe I was a bit surprised to be flying over Greenland
Very many flights to Asia go over Alaska. Singapore to Newark flies over the Arctic Ocean.

Here are the routes from Korea.

https://corporatetravelcommunity.com/analysis/airline-insight-korean-air-584347






Why Planes Don’t Fly In A Straight Line On A Map

Feb 24, 2020,07:52pm EST

Have you ever been on a long-haul flight and wondered why your aircraft is taking a curved route instead of flying in a straight line when you look at the inflight map?

This is particularly noticeable when flying between Europe and the U.S. when aircraft will fly over Greenland and Northern Canada rather than just simply flying from point A to B as it would visually appear on a map.


A representation of the world's longest flight from Singapore to Newark, NJ. MAPS

The reason for this is down to simple mathematics and physics. The circumference of the Earth is a lot further around the equator than it is at higher or lower latitudes towards the poles of the earth, such is the spherical shape of our planet.

Flying around the smaller circumference of the Earth is called the “Great Circle Route” and also very noticeable for flights from the U.S. to Asia that will fly far above Alaska and Siberia rather than what would appear to be a straight line.

If you think about drawing a line around a globe in the middle where it is widest, versus towards the North or South poles, the differentiation of distance begins to become apparent, and it not only saves a huge amount of time but also fuel.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesasquit...-straight-line-on-a-map/?sh=1be3ba1b3556

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by bnk

Yes correct. First time I flew to Europe I was a bit surprised to be flying over Greenland
Very many flights to Asia go over Alaska. Singapore to Newark flies over the Arctic Ocean.

This is correct because of the Great Circle distance-- the shortest distance between two places on a map.

If you haven't seen the FlightRadar24 website and app, you should. It is fascinating. I was in Bridgeport, CT, the other day and there was an Emirates A380 flight from from Dulles to Dubai flying overhead. Both Dulles and Dubai are significantly farther south than Connecticut.

Similarly, I recently saw a Saudi Airlines flight from Dulles to Riyadh flying overhead in Westchester County. Again, both Dulles and Riyadh are significantly farther south.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

This is correct because of the Great Circle distance-- the shortest distance between two places on a map.

If you haven't seen the FlightRadar24 website and app, you should. It is fascinating. I was in Bridgeport, CT, the other day and there was an Emirates A380 flight from from Dulles to Dubai flying overhead. Both Dulles and Dubai are significantly farther south than Connecticut.

Similarly, I recently saw a Saudi Airlines flight from Dulles to Riyadh flying overhead in Westchester County. Again, both Dulles and Riyadh are significantly farther south.

To be excessively pedantic (I'm good at that), the geodesics on Earth are not great circles as the Earth is not quite spherical, but rather better approximated as an oblate ellipsoid. The geodesics on Earth have the annoying property that (most) aren't closed. A "fun" paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1102.1215.pdf

[BillM]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

This is correct because of the Great Circle distance-- the shortest distance between two places on a map.

If you haven't seen the FlightRadar24 website and app, you should. It is fascinating. I was in Bridgeport, CT, the other day and there was an Emirates A380 flight from from Dulles to Dubai flying overhead. Both Dulles and Dubai are significantly farther south than Connecticut.

Similarly, I recently saw a Saudi Airlines flight from Dulles to Riyadh flying overhead in Westchester County. Again, both Dulles and Riyadh are significantly farther south.

Assuming those flights are taking the shortest distance, they wouldn't start crossing the Atlantic until Newfoundland.

[rds70]

According to the Denver Business Journal, Denver will become Southwest’s largest hub in the spring of 2023. DEN will have up to 270 flights per day. LAS will be second with up to 243 flights per day.

DEN is United’s second largest hub with 961 flights per day, second to ORD with 1,005 flights per day.

DEN is also Frontier’s largest hub (and headquarters).

[Steely Dan]

^ according to wikipedia, as of june 2022, denver already is the busiest southwest hub in terms of # of daily flights. (and since southwest exclusively flies 737's, passenger counts would strongly correlate to # of flights, the main variable of deviation being passenger loads/flight).


1. Denver - 274
2. Chicago (Midway) - 246
3. Las Vegas - 230
4. Baltimore -197
5. Dallas (Love) - 195
6. Phoenix - 181
7. Orlando - 156
8. Houston (Hobby) - 152
9. Nashville - 145
10. Oakland - 125


midway was southwest's busiest airport for a long time until recently when the airline started splitting its service to chicago by running some flights to ohare, which has cut into its flight numbers a bit at midway. southwest now has service to 12 cities from ohare, which is still dwarfed by the 77 destinations they serve from midway, but it was kind of a surprising move for an airline that had been unwilling to go into ohare for so many decades.

midway itself is turning into more of a full-fledged LCC airport with allegiant setting up a station there, newcomer LCC avelo starting a run to its hub in new haven, and with frontier recently going the opposite direction of southwest and moving most of its chicago service from ohare back over to midway (where it was when the airline first started serving chicago years ago). spirit/jet blue remain at ohare.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

midway itself is turning into more of a full-fledged LCC airport with allegiant setting up a station there, newcomer LCC avelo starting a run to its hub in new haven, and with frontier recently going the opposite direction of southwest and moving most of its chicago service from ohare back over to midway (where it was when the airline first started serving chicago years ago). spirit/jet blue remain at ohare.

I flew Avelo from its primary Western hub at Burbank up to Medford, OR last summer. It was quite the bargain, and the experience was basically 'off-brand Southwestern.' I didn't realize there was going to be a connection between New Haven and Midway--I hope they'll connect Burbank with Midway as well!