Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

And while I was leaving the Metro grocery store yesterday, I noticed a poster for comedian Mike Ward who will be performing in Timmins in October. For those who don't know, he is a bilingual comedian from Quebec who uses a lot of slang in both languages and definitely isn't funny to many woke people.

I find nearly all Québécois stand up comics are garbage, but Mike Ward is pretty much the only one who's actually (usually) funny.

For the record, his two best works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktVIlkM7ygc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mOCu3_arpE

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by lio45

I find nearly all Québécois stand up comics are garbage, but Mike Ward is pretty much the only one who's actually (usually) funny.

For the record, his two best works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktVIlkM7ygc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mOCu3_arpE

Really? I think Sugar Sammy’s alright.

[Architype]

This is an Acadian singer from N.B., whom I heard on CBC the other day. I assume Franco Canadians may be already familiar with her. My question is how easy is this dialect to understand among fluent French speakers. Can you translate the word "pi" in the song? This is Chiac.

• Video Link
Lisa LeBlanc - Entre toi pi moi pi la corde de bois

[Dengler Avenue]

Pi = pis = puis (“then” in English)
I suspect.

[lio45]

Pi = 3.1416

Actually, it translates directly to "and".

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Pi = pis = puis (“then” in English)
I suspect.

Originally Posted by lio45

Pi = 3.1416

Actually, it translates directly to "and".

Thanks, it makes perfect sense, Google could not translate it.

As for pi, I guess it's also a pi-lindrome.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

Pi = 3.1416

Actually, it translates directly to "and".

It also translates to "also" in many sentences. I had to listen to many francophone over the years to really get when to use it properly. "Pis" is used a lot in Timmins as well.

[lio45]

Sure, but you'll note that one could easily use "and" interchangeably with "also" in many cases.

"Also, ..."

"Oh, and, ..."

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Architype

This is an Acadian singer from N.B., whom I heard on CBC the other day. I assume Franco Canadians may be already familiar with her. My question is how easy is this dialect to understand among fluent French speakers. Can you translate the word "pi" in the song? This is Chiac.

• Video Link
Lisa LeBlanc - Entre toi pi moi pi la corde de bois

I totally understand her. I also watched an interview with her to hear her speak. She speaks a lot like francophones do where I live. Her accent isn't exactly the same as here but she uses a lot of English terminology, words to join sentences together and for some adjectives just like many of my francophone friends in Timmins do. But I'd say her accent/dialect isn't really out of the ordinary to me.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I totally understand her. I also watched an interview with her to hear her speak. She speaks a lot like francophones do where I live. Her accent isn't exactly the same as here but she uses a lot of English terminology, words to join sentences together and for some adjectives just like many of my francophone friends in Timmins do. But I'd say her accent/dialect isn't really out of the ordinary to me.

I wondered, I guess it's a bit like Newfoundland English, which has degrees of unintelligibility to mainstream speakers I used to have an Acadian friend from NB, and a francophone one from Sudbury, who would not even try to communicate in French. Music genres like EDM are international; I listen to a lot of music, and I think there is a trend towards songs in more than one language, one of them being English. It is something I pay attention to, and I think it enhances the music, because languages themselves are forms of "musical" sounds in a way, and can really change the effect.

[big T]

Originally Posted by JHikka

What are the other contenders? Abidjan? Kinshasa? Dakar? Unless we want to include places like Brussels, Geneva, Marseille..

Of course we do. Acajack’s remark was spot on, but let me add: where does a young kid from Casablanca or La Réunion or wherever plan to go for higher education abroad? 30-40 years ago Montréal was not even registering as an option — assuming you were not part of the global elite (destined for Oxbridge or Ivy League, but that’s true everywhere at that level of wealth) you’d go to France or places adjacent, meaning Paris or Lyon or Lausanne or Montpellier or Nantes or a dozen other midsize cities and large towns, and if none of those worked you’d probably start considering non- French speaking destinations before Montréal even entered the mix. Nowadays, not only is Montréal top of mind for nearly every such kid, it very often is the first choice. The importance of this shift cannot be overstated, and is why I am rather skeptical of claims that French is in danger here — we have never, in this city’s entire history, seen such an influx of competent French speakers.

Whether people speak French, Arabic or Creole at home is of very little consequence when the very reason why they picked the place is the fact that it is a prominent francophone nexus. Maybe not consciously or explicitly, but it remains true that they would not have picked it if its profile wasn’t this high in their cultural sphere of influence. To use a different example: this is why a majority of American students at McGill are from Vermont and places adjacent — Montréal is relevant in their cultural sphere due to proximity, which isn’t true for someone in NYC or Dallas (even though from a purely academic standpoint, McGill would be just as solid a choice for them as it is for a Vermonter).

And now each one of those immigrants is unquestionably strengthening Montréal’s francophone bona fides, its links to the rest of the francophonie. They are also the future CEOs, procurement managers, headhunters, and so much more, who will keep reaching to their networks abroad and keep the cycle going.

So Montréal may not look and sound French enough to some (but then again neither does Paris these days — in fact in some ways it’s worse), but I cannot see a way it will not keep integrating ever more tightly into the global francophonie for the foreseeable future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

This is an Acadian singer from N.B., whom I heard on CBC the other day. I assume Franco Canadians may be already familiar with her. My question is how easy is this dialect to understand among fluent French speakers. Can you translate the word "pi" in the song? This is Chiac.

• Video Link
Lisa LeBlanc - Entre toi pi moi pi la corde de bois

This is perfectly understandable to any average Québécois, or Franco-Ontarien even.

And it isn't really Chiac. Chiac has way more English borrowing than this, and yes for that reason it can be harder to decipher for more purely francophone Québécois.

But people from SE NB don't speak Chiac when they are in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I find nearly all Québécois stand up comics are garbage, but Mike Ward is pretty much the only one who's actually (usually) funny.

For the record, his two best works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktVIlkM7ygc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mOCu3_arpE

I would have bet everything I own that you would have included the Jérémy Gabriel sketch in there.

Even the Supreme Court of Canada would agree! Ok, maybe not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

I used to have an Acadian friend from NB, and a francophone one from Sudbury, who would not even try to communicate in French. .

I think this may have more to do with the weakness of their personal mastery of French (ie their English is likely stronger and they may even prefer it) than any problems of mutual intelligibility between Acadiens and Franco-Ontariens. As shown in the census, anglicization is on the upswing.

But this doesn't mean that Acadiens and Franco-Ontariens who are still robustly francophone cannot understand each other. They most definitely can.

We all can even fairly easily understand those rare birds from Louisiana who have retained the language.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is perfectly understandable to any average Québécois, or Franco-Ontarien even.

And it isn't really Chiac. Chiac has way more English borrowing than this, and yes for that reason it can be harder to decipher for more purely francophone Québécois.

But people from SE NB don't speak Chiac when they are in Quebec.

I have a gut feeling that Chiac as a regional dialect is dying out a bit in SENB. French educators around here view it as a bastard tongue, and try and promote standard French instead (this is a perfectly understandable point of view of course).

You certainly still hear Chiac around here of course (you are in a line-up waiting for the cashier and the couple in front of you is chatting away in French and all of a sudden a perfectly English word, sentence or even phrase organically pops up), but, I have lived here for 33 years and it seems less frequent. Instead bilingual people just switch back and forth between standard French and standard English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have a gut feeling that Chiac as a regional dialect is dying out a bit in SENB. French educators around here view it as a bastard tongue, and try and promote standard French instead (this is a perfectly understandable point of view of course).

You certainly still hear Chiac around here of course (you are in a line-up waiting for the cashier and the couple in front of you is chatting away in French and all of a sudden a perfectly English word, sentence or even phrase organically pops up), but, I have lived here for 33 years and it seems less frequent. Instead bilingual people just switch back and forth between standard French and standard English.

I hope you are right, though I often get harshly chastized or worse by certain SE NB people on other forums, for being critical of Chiac, and for being an outsider who knows nothing about them because I don't live there.

SE NB Acadiens can be very touchy and defensive about Chiac, even with people from N NB, let alone the NB-born like me who now live in Quebec!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

Of course we do. Acajack’s remark was spot on, but let me add: where does a young kid from Casablanca or La Réunion or wherever plan to go for higher education abroad? 30-40 years ago Montréal was not even registering as an option — assuming you were not part of the global elite (destined for Oxbridge or Ivy League, but that’s true everywhere at that level of wealth) you’d go to France or places adjacent, meaning Paris or Lyon or Lausanne or Montpellier or Nantes or a dozen other midsize cities and large towns, and if none of those worked you’d probably start considering non- French speaking destinations before Montréal even entered the mix. Nowadays, not only is Montréal top of mind for nearly every such kid, it very often is the first choice. The importance of this shift cannot be overstated, and is why I am rather skeptical of claims that French is in danger here — we have never, in this city’s entire history, seen such an influx of competent French speakers.

Whether people speak French, Arabic or Creole at home is of very little consequence when the very reason why they picked the place is the fact that it is a prominent francophone nexus. Maybe not consciously or explicitly, but it remains true that they would not have picked it if its profile wasn’t this high in their cultural sphere of influence. To use a different example: this is why a majority of American students at McGill are from Vermont and places adjacent — Montréal is relevant in their cultural sphere due to proximity, which isn’t true for someone in NYC or Dallas (even though from a purely academic standpoint, McGill would be just as solid a choice for them as it is for a Vermonter).

And now each one of those immigrants is unquestionably strengthening Montréal’s francophone bona fides, its links to the rest of the francophonie. They are also the future CEOs, procurement managers, headhunters, and so much more, who will keep reaching to their networks abroad and keep the cycle going.

So Montréal may not look and sound French enough to some (but then again neither does Paris these days — in fact in some ways it’s worse), but I cannot see a way it will not keep integrating ever more tightly into the global francophonie for the foreseeable future.

I have mixed views on whether this makes a bright future for French in Montréal significantly more likely (in light of all the other pressures).

But I am definitely seeing the phenomenon in action. One of my kids, who has a French significant other, spent part of the summer in France and every gathering of young people had 1-2-3 kids either coming or planning to come to Montréal to study.

In a week or two my kid's Montréal apartment could be filled with Frenchies squatting for a few days while they find their own place.

Not too many I hope.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not that long ago, Brussels, Geneva and maybe even Lyon would have been considered ahead of Montréal in terms of importance.

For better or for worse, rightly or wrongly, cities in the developing world are rarely considered in the equation.

Here below the largest Francophone metro areas in Europe in 2019 (population in January 2019). We can now make international comparisons thanks to the uniform definition of metro areas developed by OECD and Eurostat (in a nutshell, a central population core and employment center, and the territories around it that send more than 15% of their employed residents to the central population core and employment center).

Population in January 2019 (average growth rate between 2008 and 2019):

1. Paris: 13,114,718 (+0.45% per year)
2. Brussels: 3,284,548 (+0.92% per year)
3. Lyon: 2,280,845 (+0.97% per year)
4. Marseille - Aix-en-Provence: 1,873,270 (+0.68% per year)
5. Lille: 1,510,079 (+0.38% per year)
6. Toulouse: 1,454,158 (+1.37% per year)
7. Bordeaux: 1,363,711 (+1.39% per year)
8. Geneva: 1,032,750 (+1.57% per year)
9. Nantes: 1,011,020 (+1.34% per year)
10. Nice - Cannes - Antibes: 1,008,296 (+0.09% per year)

In comparison, the Statcan-defined metro area of Montréal had 4,291,732 inhabitants in 2021, with a growth rate of +0.86% per year between 2011 and 2021. So it's interestingly growing less than Brussels and Lyon, despite international immigration.

The uniform definition of metro areas developed by OECD and Eurostat has a higher figure for Montréal: 4,599,500 inhabitants in 2019. That's more comparable to figures for the European metro areas above.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

This is an Acadian singer from N.B., whom I heard on CBC the other day. I assume Franco Canadians may be already familiar with her. My question is how easy is this dialect to understand among fluent French speakers. Can you translate the word "pi" in the song? This is Chiac.

• Video Link
Lisa LeBlanc - Entre toi pi moi pi la corde de bois

Pi is actually spelled "pis", and it's perfectly understandable. It's an old and rural form of "puis", as in "pis c'est tout" ("and that's it").

The song is mostly understandable. Only the fact that she rolls her r makes her sound very distinct. I'd say for European speakers of French it would be like US audiences listening to a Scottish singer sing a song with a strong Scottish accent and a few Scottish words here and there unknown to the US audience.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The song is mostly understandable.

Yeah, it means nothing to me either. I can't get a thing of the song.
She's overdoing her Canadian accent on purpose and her lyrics would leave you like - huh?

That's uninteresting. Either you speak some decent French and write some meaningful lyrics, or you sell your shit in English.
That's it.