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  #6701  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 12:16 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by fanofYOW View Post
I was thinking about all those narrow body slots at LHR myself. But I don't think AC will forever keep YOW-LHR as a narrow body. Before COVID, they must have seen good demand for this route to want to upgrade it to a 788. Unless the only reason why they wanted to do that is so they can use their 767 for cargo? But I'm not sure if they were planning for that back then.. Also I think the thing about LHR as apposed to LGW is that a lot of these people going to LHR isn't O&D traffic, people are connecting there with AC's partners. There isn't as much connectivity selection in LGW. For example, I know someone who used to use YOW-LHR to grab a flight from LHR to BEY on MEA. That's not an option from LGW.
You are thinking of this in one dimension. Namely how would AC connect YOW to LHR? But that is not how any airline planner would look at this. They are looking at two sets of demand from each city I mentioned: origin-destination demand to London/UK and connection demand through LHR.

Canadian cities have high o/d to the UK. Most secondary metros like YOW can support at least a daily if not double daily. Prior to this order AC didn't have any aircraft that would let them offer year round service with lie flat business to all these secondary Canadian metros. Now they will. And London bound traffic is not very likely to be sensitive to which London airports they use. If they can't get Heathrow slots, they'll open Gatwick. WestJet and Air Transat go to Gatwick and can fill widebodies there without many connections at that end. No reason can't fill 1-2x YOW-LGW.

Once the above demand is separated out, what's left is traffic that is transiting through LHR. And that traffic is fungible. It can transit elsewhere. Not just at LHR. Your friend, for example, could transit at CDG or FRA just as easily as he could at LHR. And here AC is highly motivated to have as many passengers transit through FRA and MUC (their JV partner hubs as possible. A high secondary motivation is freeing up another Heathrow slot for a widebody from YYZ, YUL or YVR.

Next, consider the need for frequencies and how it trades off with capacity A single daily widebody means a large chunk of demand is still going through YYZ and YUL because of scheduling. But 2x/day XLR offers nearly as many J seats as one 789 or 333 and about slightly more than a quarter more economy seats while substantially improving scheduling. AC can run this schedule year round and sub in a single widebody during peak season for one of the dailies.

I look at all the above and I think AC would practically own long haul out of Ottawa if they did double daily to London and Frankfurt. Maybe even a daily to Paris. And then during the back hours of those 4-5 aircraft r they run double daily to Vancouver and San Francisco. This seems like a great strategy to both attack Porter at YOW on high value long haul and fight off potential Transatlantic competition from both Eurolegacies and discount carriers.

YOW will get the international connections it wants and needs. But that same type may also put a cap on YOW's Transatlantic growth because they'll also open up a whole bunch of secondary destinations in Europe from YUL allowing AC to absolutely hammer Air Transat and massively increase competitiveness with IAG and AFKL. YUL, particularly, is likely to see a substantial increase in the number of Transatlantic destinations offered and the frequencies to them.
     
     
  #6702  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 3:41 AM
Calfan12 Calfan12 is offline
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Originally Posted by fanofYOW View Post
That's so exciting, it looks so good. Porter is really dragging the announcement of their initial routes. They are supposed to fly the first commercial route in Q3/Q4 but Q3 is a month and a half away from done.
Actually is good that Porter is taking a slower approach to announce new routes with their new E195-E2 planes ✈️.

As Winter season Travel demand is usually down & less busier.

Spring & Summer is the best time for most Airlines to start up new routes when travel demand goes Up.
     
     
  #6703  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 7:17 AM
Calfan12 Calfan12 is offline
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WESTJET NW22 DOMESTIC FREQUENCY VARIATIONS

Calgary – Ottawa Reduce from 12 to 10 weekly
Toronto – Ottawa Reduce from 84 to 39 weekly
Winnipeg – Ottawa Reduce from 6 to 3 weekly

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220815-wsnw22ca

Not too surprising as Winter season Travel demand is usually down & less busier.

Last edited by Calfan12; Aug 16, 2022 at 8:14 AM.
     
     
  #6704  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 3:34 PM
fanofYOW fanofYOW is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
You are thinking of this in one dimension. Namely how would AC connect YOW to LHR? But that is not how any airline planner would look at this. They are looking at two sets of demand from each city I mentioned: origin-destination demand to London/UK and connection demand through LHR.

Canadian cities have high o/d to the UK. Most secondary metros like YOW can support at least a daily if not double daily. Prior to this order AC didn't have any aircraft that would let them offer year round service with lie flat business to all these secondary Canadian metros. Now they will. And London bound traffic is not very likely to be sensitive to which London airports they use. If they can't get Heathrow slots, they'll open Gatwick. WestJet and Air Transat go to Gatwick and can fill widebodies there without many connections at that end. No reason can't fill 1-2x YOW-LGW.

Once the above demand is separated out, what's left is traffic that is transiting through LHR. And that traffic is fungible. It can transit elsewhere. Not just at LHR. Your friend, for example, could transit at CDG or FRA just as easily as he could at LHR. And here AC is highly motivated to have as many passengers transit through FRA and MUC (their JV partner hubs as possible. A high secondary motivation is freeing up another Heathrow slot for a widebody from YYZ, YUL or YVR.

Next, consider the need for frequencies and how it trades off with capacity A single daily widebody means a large chunk of demand is still going through YYZ and YUL because of scheduling. But 2x/day XLR offers nearly as many J seats as one 789 or 333 and about slightly more than a quarter more economy seats while substantially improving scheduling. AC can run this schedule year round and sub in a single widebody during peak season for one of the dailies.

I look at all the above and I think AC would practically own long haul out of Ottawa if they did double daily to London and Frankfurt. Maybe even a daily to Paris. And then during the back hours of those 4-5 aircraft r they run double daily to Vancouver and San Francisco. This seems like a great strategy to both attack Porter at YOW on high value long haul and fight off potential Transatlantic competition from both Eurolegacies and discount carriers.

YOW will get the international connections it wants and needs. But that same type may also put a cap on YOW's Transatlantic growth because they'll also open up a whole bunch of secondary destinations in Europe from YUL allowing AC to absolutely hammer Air Transat and massively increase competitiveness with IAG and AFKL. YUL, particularly, is likely to see a substantial increase in the number of Transatlantic destinations offered and the frequencies to them.
Great explanations. Ultimately I personally would prefer high frequencies and more year-round service on a narrow body compared to lower frequencies and seasonal on a wide body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calfan12 View Post
Actually is good that Porter is taking a slower approach to announce new routes with their new E195-E2 planes ✈️.

As Winter season Travel demand is usually down & less busier.

Spring & Summer is the best time for most Airlines to start up new routes when travel demand goes Up.
Yes winter demand is much lower. Even though I am super anxious to find out what Porter's plans are for YOW, I still want them to do it properly and if going slow is the way then so be it. Expanding too fast and compromising customer service would not be very good for their image in destinations that are just being introduced to Porter.
     
     
  #6705  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 4:08 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by fanofYOW View Post
Great explanations. Ultimately I personally would prefer high frequencies and more year-round service on a narrow body compared to lower frequencies and seasonal on a wide body.
As would I.

I'm just sad this service is most likely coming from Air Canada and not competitors. It only tightens AC's grip on YOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanofYOW View Post
Yes winter demand is much lower. Even though I am super anxious to find out what Porter's plans are for YOW, I still want them to do it properly and if going slow is the way then so be it. Expanding too fast and compromising customer service would not be very good for their image in destinations that are just being introduced to Porter.
The biggest risk for Porter is YYZ and YUL. I have no idea why they want to jump into those and get eaten alive by AC. They should stick to YOW and YHZ.
     
     
  #6706  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 4:17 PM
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Part of me wonders if Porter is advertising “hubs” in those locations as a way to keep the sharks distracted while they put the real plan in place.

Or, maybe they’re just that stupid. (we come back to the discussion about airlines and their intelligence).
     
     
  #6707  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 4:17 PM
fanofYOW fanofYOW is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The biggest risk for Porter is YYZ and YUL. I have no idea why they want to jump into those and get eaten alive by AC. They should stick to YOW and YHZ.
That's what I was thinking. If you look as WS's service out of YUL, it's lower than YOW. I remember reading somewhere that WS can't thrive in YUL because of the heavy competition there. So it makes me wonder how Porter plans to do this? Also how are they going to make YYZ a "hub"? Certainly not from a bus connecting YTZ to YYZ. Maybe they mean local O&D traffic? Also, isn't YYZ already tight on available slots? YOW is perfectly positioned to be at least a secondary main hub if they insist on making YYZ the primary.

Last edited by fanofYOW; Aug 16, 2022 at 4:33 PM.
     
     
  #6708  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 4:54 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by FlyYOW View Post
Part of me wonders if Porter is advertising “hubs” in those locations as a way to keep the sharks distracted while they put the real plan in place.

Or, maybe they’re just that stupid. (we come back to the discussion about airlines and their intelligence).
Yes I was wondering the same with a different angle AC and WS can't or won't adjust their schedule at the last minute. So for example if in September Porter comes in with a bunch of direct Ottawa sun destinations they can easily dominate the market with even slightly higher than AC prices for connecting via Montreal. They could also undercut YQB, YHZ. Moncton, St. John (s) and other connections via Ottawa and if Air Canada gets aggressive at those locations it's not fatal. But having worked in the C suite when very young it is shocking how quickly these strategies can put put together. Not stupid just focused on the wrong things. So for Porter this is financing and purchasing hiring and the general airport chaos. Routes is such an art it can never be objectively perfect so constant permutations and indecision can swirl. All speculation of course.
     
     
  #6709  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 5:41 PM
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Yeah there was a healthy amount of sarcasm in the stupid comment. It was more a statement that notwithstanding all the experience and expertise the people running these things are very capable of making poor decisions. Trying to have a serious go at one of those airports would be a bad idea let alone both.
     
     
  #6710  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyYOW View Post
Part of me wonders if Porter is advertising “hubs” in those locations as a way to keep the sharks distracted while they put the real plan in place.

Or, maybe they’re just that stupid. (we come back to the discussion about airlines and their intelligence).
Yes I was wondering the same with a different angle AC and WS can't or won't adjust their schedule at the last minute. So for example if in September Porter comes in with a bunch of direct Ottawa sun destinations they can easily dominate the market with even slightly higher than AC prices for connecting via Montreal. They could also undercut YQB, YHZ. Moncton, St. John (s) and other connections via Ottawa and if Air Canada gets aggressive at those locations it's not fatal. But having worked in the C suite when very young it is shocking how quickly these strategies can put put together. Not stupid just focused on the other things. So for Porter this might be financing and purchasing, hiring. Routes is such an art it can never be objectively perfect so constant permutations and indecision can swirl. All speculation of course.
     
     
  #6711  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 8:59 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by FlyYOW View Post
The pair allocated to YOWLHR was reallocated to YUL for 2nd daily due to COVID. Lots of people, like me, believe this is temporary and will come back to YOW.

FRA has nothing to do. I was just recalling how a 2nd daily YULFRA at the time was pulled and allocated to YOW to launch that service.
For LHR, AC have I believe two of their LHR slots sub-leased out and one is dormant (they can do so and still meet the min LHR slot usage), even with the 2nd daily YUL. They can easily restart it whenever they want to, along with the YYZ daytripper and YHZ going back to a night slot. One of the slots is with UA for BOS (probably long-term), but the other is with a Euro LCC.

Today's departure count: 63

Today's cancellation count: 1

Amazing to hear we'll be getting mainline UA aircraft for the first time ever. Shows how UA being the sole US carrier has created a huge gap.

Looks like YVR will be Porter's first jet destination as they're looking to hire a mechanic there.

Last edited by Dominion301; Aug 16, 2022 at 9:17 PM.
     
     
  #6712  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 9:32 PM
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Colour me informed. Thanks!
     
     
  #6713  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 1:42 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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New Routes in Ottawa

We have talked about our lack of European and other flights. Came across this incentive program and was wondering if this would be allowed under Canadian and I suppose US regulations:

Basically offering massive discounts to landing and passenger fees for new year-round routes. 100% of landing fees for first year for example.

https://simpleflying.com/zagreb-airport-incentive-program/

Anybody know?
     
     
  #6714  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 1:44 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I don't think there's laws disallowing airports from offering such deals. But there may be contracts with existing tenants that limit such deals.
     
     
  #6715  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 4:21 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Today's departure count: 61

Today's cancellation count: 1
     
     
  #6716  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 8:13 PM
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Some weather in Toronto, so YOW has a couple diversions thus far. Nothing too exciting, just a Transat A321neo and a Sunwing B738.
     
     
  #6717  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 5:34 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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I don't think there's laws disallowing airports from offering such deals. But there may be contracts with existing tenants that limit such deals.
Correct. Airports can cut breaks on fees to help support any new route. YKF has been in the newest about having exclusivity agreements on some routes to ensure a predator can't come sweeping in...important for an airport looking to take a big leap from very little service to appropriate service levels for a metro of over 1/2 million.
     
     
  #6718  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 12:01 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Today’s departure count: 69

Today’s cancellation count (so far): 1
     
     
  #6719  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 2:11 PM
fanofYOW fanofYOW is offline
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Originally Posted by Dominion301 View Post
Correct. Airports can cut breaks on fees to help support any new route. YKF has been in the newest about having exclusivity agreements on some routes to ensure a predator can't come sweeping in...important for an airport looking to take a big leap from very little service to appropriate service levels for a metro of over 1/2 million.
I saw that online as well. According to Flair, YKF has reached out to Swoop and WS in the past with no response back. Flair is investing in YKF to expand the airport, so why should they allow others to come in and benefit from it with little effort? Now that Swoop is seeing how successful YKF is, they now want a piece of it? I'm so happy for Flair and YKF to be honest. This is the perfect example of an airline seeing potential in an airport, expanding service, and the others watching that airport's numbers rise. Now the others who never cared about it, care.

I'm very excited to know where Porter intends to fly from YOW, but I'm also equally excited to see what routes from other carriers will pop up after because of it.

Last edited by fanofYOW; Aug 19, 2022 at 2:25 PM.
     
     
  #6720  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 2:23 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Yeah. But in the case of YOW they may well have clauses with AC that restrict their ability to offer extreme discounts to newcomers.
     
     
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