YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Why not both? One can hope.

How long is the Nadi flight?

According to Google Flights, about 11 hours

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by nname

For AV, I don't think they'll put YVR before SFO. For LA/LP, I don't think they'll put YVR before both SFO and YYZ...

So really, the best bet for any South America service from YVR is from AC, and maybe some Chinese airlines if they finally decide to open up and back to expansion mode.

Any airline from SA to Vancouver would likely require a Dreamliner as the distance is quite extensive. Don’t think airlines like Lantam or Avianca would use those

[Denscity]

Vancouver to Brazil now we're talkin!
So many people from Brazil in Vancouver.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Any airline from SA to Vancouver would likely require a Dreamliner as the distance is quite extensive. Don’t think airlines like Latam or Avianca would use those

Apparently, LATAM Brazil does use the Dreamliner now.

https://simpleflying.com/latam-brazil-fi...3%A3o%20Paulo%20Guarulhos%20and%20Madrid.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

The next focus should definitely be getting a South America route, no doubt about it. I hope either Avianca or Air Canada can make the economics work to start one, that is the biggest missing piece in YVR's puzzle

Don't even bother with Avianca. They are cutting a lot of international routes. The airline isn't doing well at all. Before the pandemic, they had plans to launch YUL, but that hasn't materialized, and I doubt it will. YVR-BOG on AV is an even bigger pipe dream.

Originally Posted by nname

LIM or BOG... probably not with AC. Doesn't look like LIM is doing particular well, as it is the last South American route to restart and had been cut to the bare minimum frequency (from YYZ/YUL). I think AC probably can't wait to put A321XLR to the route. BOG not exactly on the expanding mode as well, and I won't be surprised if AC put XLR on that route as well.

If AC ever going to add a South American route from YVR... GRU might have higher chance, as they are actually expanding the service there.

I highly doubt you're going to see the XLR in LIM or BOG.

For one, LIM is an important cargo market. So the added lift a widebody provides is welcome. As for BOG, it is a hot and high airport. The XLR's power to weight ratio is pretty low, and won't cut it out of BOG to Canada.

But I do agree that if YVR were to see a South American destination, it will be AC to GRU.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

.
But I do agree that if YVR were to see a South American destination, it will be AC to GRU.

It seemed to me that AC wanted everything from Canada to GRU to fly out of YYZ or YUL, because they are a lot closer to GRU than YVR. I hope I'm wrong, but YVR-GRU seems like a pipe dream.

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

For one, LIM is an important cargo market. So the added lift a widebody provides is welcome. As for BOG, it is a hot and high airport. The XLR's power to weight ratio is pretty low, and won't cut it out of BOG to Canada.

Well for LIM, they could always use few weekly 767F on top of more frequent XLR, or keep widebody on YYZ while using XLR for YUL, or just give up passenger service and run it with only the 767F.

For BOG, AV is running 319 to YYZ, and AC had been running 7M8 for a while on the route too. So you say the performance of 321XLR is worse than the 319 or 7M8?

But anyways, none of these really matters anyways. It's either AC to GRU, or some Chinese airline to LIM or SCL IF they decide to open up AND some airline decide to expand into the west coast of South America AND they pick YVR as the stop AND one or both CA/CZ gives up on the HAV/MEX route.

Originally Posted by wabooba

It seemed to me that AC wanted everything from Canada to GRU to fly out of YYZ or YUL, because they are a lot closer to GRU than YVR. I hope I'm wrong, but YVR-GRU seems like a pipe dream.

With what happened in the past... if both YYZ and YUL grow to daily service, it's highly likely AC going to add YVR service rather than increase a route beyond daily. In fact, it is also possible for YVR to gain GRU service before YUL goes daily, as long as one of the route remains daily.

[casper]

Originally Posted by nname

Well for LIM, they could always use few weekly 767F on top of more frequent XLR, or keep widebody on YYZ while using XLR for YUL, or just give up passenger service and run it with only the 767F.

For BOG, AV is running 319 to YYZ, and AC had been running 7M8 for a while on the route too. So you say the performance of 321XLR is worse than the 319 or 7M8?

But anyways, none of these really matters anyways. It's either AC to GRU, or some Chinese airline to LIM or SCL IF they decide to open up AND some airline decide to expand into the west coast of South America AND they pick YVR as the stop AND one or both CA/CZ gives up on the HAV/MEX route.



With what happened in the past... if both YYZ and YUL grow to daily service, it's highly likely AC going to add YVR service rather than increase a route beyond daily. In fact, it is also possible for YVR to gain GRU service before YUL goes daily, as long as one of the route remains daily.

If YVR had this as a priority it would make the most sense to try to talk to one of the airlines from Japan. JAL use to have a tag on to Mexico City.

Usually the tag-on flights like that are considered old school and out of favour. However we live in weird times. If JAL or ANA are having problems finding places to productively use their aircraft with China in lockdown they might consider it. Brazil has strong ties to Japan for reasons I have never understood.

The decision to add a new destination is something airlines spend a lot of time crunching numbers on. So they very well may think differently than I do.

[nname]

Originally Posted by casper

If YVR had this as a priority it would make the most sense to try to talk to one of the airlines from Japan. JAL use to have a tag on to Mexico City.

I think both airlines in Japan are quite conservative and I don't see them ever go to South America. Alliance/codeshare should be good enough. There are many choices to go from Japan to Brazil... YYZ/YUL are two of them.

Chinese airlines, on the other hand... there were expanding everywhere AND they want to send their own metal. The huge population would support pretty much every destination that opens to tourism. I believe there were direct flights to Brazil before, through Europe. If they ever want to operate to the west coast of South America, logically it would make most sense for the stop to be in the west coast of North America, so there were only a few choices available.

But this was before the pandemic. Now, would China ever open up is one question, and even if they eventually opens up, would the Chinese airline still going to expand all over the world? Would the population there still going to be able to travel so freely?

[casper]

Originally Posted by nname

I think both airlines in Japan are quite conservative and I don't see them ever go to South America. Alliance/codeshare should be good enough. There are many choices to go from Japan to Brazil... YYZ/YUL are two of them.

Chinese airlines, on the other hand... there were expanding everywhere AND they want to send their own metal. The huge population would support pretty much every destination that opens to tourism. I believe there were direct flights to Brazil before, through Europe. If they ever want to operate to the west coast of South America, logically it would make most sense for the stop to be in the west coast of North America, so there were only a few choices available.

But this was before the pandemic. Now, would China ever open up is one question, and even if they eventually opens up, would the Chinese airline still going to expand all over the world? Would the population there still going to be able to travel so freely?

Good question. They are focused on keeping COVID out at all cost.

I think China still has aspirations of being a world power and having countries that it influences. However that clearly is not going to be Canada. I would expect they would look at other more friendly countries to build those types of air links through.

[nname]

Originally Posted by casper

I think China still has aspirations of being a world power and having countries that it influences. However that clearly is not going to be Canada. I would expect they would look at other more friendly countries to build those types of air links through.

Even though most airlines are state-owned, but ultimately, they want to make money. Even with subsidy, they only provide a fixed amount, and it's up to the airline to find the best way to use it. So of course they'll try to find the route that burn the less fuel and be able to fill the most seats.

For China to west coast SA, the best choices are Canada and USA, then the EU countries, then maybe northern Africa, then maybe Russia but that means a relatively short hop plus a ULH segment so not exactly efficient. So, pick the most friendly country out of those.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by nname

So you say the performance of 321XLR is worse than the 319 or 7M8?

Absolutely. At hot and high airports, if you lose an engine on takeoff, you still need to climb and clear the terrain around the airport. Aircraft with higher power to weight ratios are better at this. A319 power to weight ratio is far greater than the A321, and is in fact the ideal narrowbody for hot and high airports. There is a reason why AV only has A319/A320s and not a single A321 in their fleet.

Also, Chinese carriers use A319s at their high altitude Tibetan plateau airports all the time.

Here is the wiki page of the highest civilian airport in the world. 14,472ft altitude. Guess what’s the aircraft type in the picture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daocheng_Yading_Airport

[Calfan12]

Looks like WestJet 787 will be operating on Vancouver YVR - Peurto Vallarta PVR from October 30 2022- end of April 2023 & similar to the Calgary YYC -PVR in Western Canada service on the WS 787 .

WS 787 service for YVR is now year round.

WestJet in Northern winter 2022/23 season plans to expand capacity on Vancouver – Puerto Vallarta route, through the schedule of Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner aircraft. 1 of 2 daily service will be operated by Boeing 787 instead of 737, from 30OCT22 to 29APR23.

The following schedule is effective from the month of January 2023.

WS2152 YVR0835 – 1532PVR 737 D
WS2154 YVR1020 – 1650PVR 789 D

WS2153 PVR1625 – 1941YVR 737 D
WS2155 PVR1850 – 2141YVR 789 D

The carrier’s Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner will once again operate Calgary – Puerto Vallarta route one round-trip flight a day, from 30OCT22 to 29APR23.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220815-wsnw22yvrpvr

[Klazu]

Who knows, maybe Japanese airlines are also forced to seek new routes now that they are banned from flying over Russia? It has forced airlines like Finnair to open routes to North America, such as Seattle and Dallas.

Since high altitude airports was mentioned, the weirdest airline out of Helsinki must be Tibet Airlines with their route to Jinan. Such a weird airline to see on an European airport.

[Calfan12]

WESTJET NW22 DOMESTIC FREQUENCY VARIATIONS

Vancouver – Calgary Reduce from 86 to 74 weekly
Vancouver – Comox Increase from 13 to 14 weekly
Vancouver – Edmonton Reduce from 53 to 40 weekly
Vancouver – Fort St. John Reduce from 7 to 6 weekly
Vancouver – Kelowna Reduce from 55 to 47 weekly
Vancouver – Prince George Reduce from 33 to 30 weekly
Vancouver – Terrace Reduce from 19 to 13 weekly
Vancouver – Toronto Reduce from 48 to 34 weekly
Vancouver – Victoria Reduce from 35 to 25 weekly
Vancouver – Winnipeg Reduce from 14 to 7 weekly

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220815-wsnw22ca

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by nname

Chinese airlines, on the other hand... there were expanding everywhere AND they want to send their own metal. The huge population would support pretty much every destination that opens to tourism. I believe there were direct flights to Brazil before, through Europe. If they ever want to operate to the west coast of South America, logically it would make most sense for the stop to be in the west coast of North America, so there were only a few choices available.

Not really. ORD and IAH would be ideal stopping points as well on a PEK-LIM run. You need to go deeper in western South America, down to SCL, for the west coast of NA to have the upper hand.

This being said, China to the west coast of SA is a very niche market. Extremely thin.

No way a Chinese airline starts flights to LIM or SCL before resuming what they had to Brazil (largest market to Asia from Latin America), or even Mexico (second largest market).

However, one could argue that PTY and HAV are niche markets as well, and yet Air China started both. There were underlying factors to both though.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by casper

Good question. They are focused on keeping COVID out at all cost.

More like keeping COVID news IN at all cost. COVID's never not been in China... though I wish they'd done a better job focusing on keeping COVID ONLY in China.

As for South America...

YVR-GRU doesn't make a lot of sense for a Canadian airline when a stop in YYZ only adds 300 miles.

The YVR-LIM route looks interesting, as going via YYZ adds almost 20% to the distance travelled.

[Calfan12]

AIR NEW ZEALAND NW22 VANCOUVER SERVICE ADJUSTMENT

Air New Zealand in February and March 2023 plans to increase Auckland – Vancouver service, reflected in last week’s schedule update. Additional weekly flight is being added from 21FEB23, with Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner.

Operational frequency for Northern winter 2022/23 season as follows.

30OCT22 – 11DEC22 4 weekly
12DEC22 – 19FEB23 1 daily
21FEB23 – 25MAR23 5 weekly (increase from 4)

Schedule below is effective 21FEB23 – 07MAR23.

NZ024 AKL2005 – 1205YVR 789 x14
NZ023 YVR1915 – 0615+2AKL 789 x14

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220816-nznw22yvr

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

This being said, China to the west coast of SA is a very niche market. Extremely thin.

Before the pandemic, you see all the attractions overran by Chinese tourists everywhere in the world. There were about 40k Chinese tourist going to Peru and was rapidly growing before the pandemic shuts everything down.

So if everything ever go back to what it was before, eventually a service to SA would be needed. The tourists will need a way to get there...

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by nname

Before the pandemic, you see all the attractions overran by Chinese tourists everywhere in the world. There were about 40k Chinese tourist going to Peru and was rapidly growing before the pandemic shuts everything down.

So if everything ever go back to what it was before, eventually, a service to SA would be needed. The tourists will need a way to get there...

That's reassuring to know. Maybe YVR will be a transit point to SA after all...