DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[mhays]

The headline is very misleading. Seattle's nowhere near the top for transit. But it does a lot of things decently, like relatively fast and frequent buses by US standards.

PS, Sound Transit is the #2 transit provider in the region. #1 is King County Metro, which does the short/mid-distance buses.

[TakeFive]

Thanks for your effort !

Originally Posted by laniroj

Downtown takes the headlines, but the greater suburban area is densifying in ways I'm not sure many on this site may realize. Here are just some examples of moderately dense housing popping up in faraway lands. There are too many to link, but they are in every corner of our transit network now, the majority of which isn't even a decade old. The heavy development in places like Belleview, Lone Tree, etc are lines that have been around 20 years. To me, the future of transit looks good and we all need to take a breath and realize that we have a gem of a transit network that isn't perfect, but it will serve a meaningful purpose as the decades roll by.

Cirrus used to provide links for photos he used as examples and I always enjoyed that.

I recognized about half of those. When you spread them out among 50 stations it has a diluting affect but the point is that this will continue to grow as you point out.

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That's just the way it is
(Bruce Hornbsy)

Originally Posted by Ndj

Car-centric dense housing is still car-centric. I see that in a lot of the "density" popping up around Denver.

In the suburbs I'd venture to guess that 95% of households have a car, some have two or three. Even if they can take advantage of light rail, most people still want a car for shopping, entertainment or going into the mountains. If they're a family with kids there's myriad reasons for needing a car - in the suburbs.

You should consider attending some of the neighborhood presentations that developers are required to give. I haven't gone in person but I have followed many for the feedback or blowback developers get for too much density, too much traffic etc. Even in Denver neighborhoods it can be hard to convince people that density and transit are good things.

Unfortunately, it's a process; a process that will take decades. But who knows maybe in time cars will become much less of a thing.

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I'm not so sure I wouldn't agree with that list

Originally Posted by mhays

The headline is very misleading. Seattle's nowhere near the top for transit. But it does a lot of things decently, like relatively fast and frequent buses by US standards.

Admittedly it's hard to compare Seattle with the legacy systems of large cities. But many or most of those systems are also a Hot Mess.

Transit woes mount for Boston’s beleaguered subway riders
August 7, 2022 By STEVE LeBLANC - AP News

BOSTON (AP) — For Boston subway riders, it seems every week brings a new tale of transit woe.

Runaway trains. Subway cars belching smoke and fire. Fatal accidents. Malfunctioning station escalators. Rush hour trains running on weekend schedules. Brand-new subway cars pulled from service. Derailed construction vehicles.

The repeated chaos of the nation’s oldest subway system has stretched the nerves of riders, prompted a probe by the Federal Transit Administration and worried political leaders.

The Chicago Transit Authority is having a crime problem including people getting shot.

While Sound Transit gets more current buzz and is still a work-in-progress there's no question the RapidRide lines which they invested a lot of money on have performed well (for the most part).

[rds70]

Kroenke Sports Entertainment has unveiled its most detailed plans to date regarding its redevelopment of land around Ball Arena.


By Kate Tracy – Reporter , Denver Business Journal
Aug 9, 2022

After proposing its massive redevelopment plan for the 55 acres that surround Ball Arena in May, KSE submitted its Ball Arena Infrastructure Master Plan on July 27. The plan proposes approximately 12 million square feet of residential, retail, office, hotel and education uses on the land that’s bordered by Speer Boulevard, the Regional Transportation District rail line and Auraria Parkway.

The new plans break out the use of that square footage more clearly. KSE wants to build 6,729 new residential units totaling 5.38 million square feet. Plus, 582,763 square feet will be made up of retail buildings.

Five office buildings totaling 2.9 million square feet are also proposed, with two of those buildings located at Speer Boulevard and the RTD rail line. The other three would be located along the northwestern corner of the development, also bordered by the RTD rail line. KSE is also proposing a 309-key, 225,300-square-foot hotel at the south corner of Wewatta Street and Speer Boulevard.

KSE is also proposing 3.1 million square feet of education buildings on the southwestern portion of the site.

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/12319145/screen-shot-2022-08-09-at-22759-pm*750xx1803-1014-138-0.png

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Not sure if Walton will be building a new stadium any time soon. The new CEO, Greg Penner, said at the introductory press conference today "At this point, Empower Field at Mile High is a world class facility. We have 10 years on our lease. We have time to consider our options."

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by rds70

KSE is also proposing 3.1 million square feet of education buildings on the southwestern portion of the site.

What are they thinking of there? Extension of the Auraria Campus with student housing and activities? It would make sense given the long-standing wishes of MSU Denver and also CU Denver's vision for it's Student Village.

[TakeFive]

Step by Step, slowly I turn

Originally Posted by rds70

Kroenke Sports Entertainment has unveiled its most detailed plans to date regarding its redevelopment of land around Ball Arena.

Somewhere among that development KSE has plans for creating new practice facilities for both the Avalanche and the Nuggets, etal. Included will be high-end training facilities and rehab/therapy areas; I wouldn't be surprised if they have their own MRI scanner machine.
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Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Not sure if Walton will be building a new stadium any time soon. The new CEO, Greg Penner, said at the introductory press conference today "At this point, Empower Field at Mile High is a world class facility. We have 10 years on our lease. We have time to consider our options."

It was nice to see several prominent Blacks among the ownership or Executive team. The Presser was emotional for both Mellody Hobson and Condoleezza Rice.

'The moment is humbling, and it's historical':

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. — For Mellody Hobson and Condoleezza Rice, the opportunity to join the Walton-Penner Family Ownership Group's purchase of the Broncos was about more than simply owning an NFL team.

For Hobson, the chairwoman of Starbucks and president and co-CEO of Ariel Investments, it was a realization that went beyond her imagination.

And for Rice, a former secretary of state and provost at Stanford University, joining the group was an opportunity to combine her deep-rooted love for football with her fond memories of Denver. "You have to understand how much I love football," Rice said. "My dad was a football coach when I was born.

"To me, actually, it's a blessing," Owner & CEO Greg Penner said of being joined by Hobson and Rice in the ownership group. "To have partners like this, their willingness to join us in this endeavor, is a huge blessing. I couldn't be more thankful."

I'm not surprised they quickly put to bed the idea of moving the Stadium. The 10 year lease made for a good excuse. What's interesting is that if they want to go in that direction they only have about 5 years to make a decision. It takes years of planning and development for a project of the size of a new stadium.

[TakeFive]

Contradictions and hypocrisy abound

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Unfortunately this thinking is now engrained at the very highest levels - state and federal. Anti-car "urbanists" (you know, urban, like Boulder) long ago won the ideological battle.

While watching a Rockies game recently I did a dive into the Denver Streets Partnership. Nothing I wasn't already familiar with; it was textbook Urbanism. I suspect in many cases the world has passed them by.

They'll insist on sending a bus down 'Your Friendly Street' with one guy in the back of the bus while spewing pollution along the way. But ask for service that would be in high demand and they come up with excuses.

RTD’s BroncosRide isn’t coming back anytime soon
August 12, 2022 Nathaniel Minor - CPR News

Before the Regional Transportation District put it into hibernation in the spring of 2020, the decades-old BroncosRide bus service ferried thousands of passengers directly to Empower Field at Mile High for Broncos home games.

But the service is not coming back this season, which starts Saturday with an exhibition home game against Dallas. One big reason is because of RTD’s ongoing driver shortage, and special services like BroncosRide require lots of drivers to work extra shifts.

Are all the directors happy about this?

Some on RTD’s governing board of directors have pushed the agency to bring back BroncosRide, noting its popularity.

"There are people in our districts, that's the only time they use our system,” Board member Troy Whitmore told the board in March. “They feel good about their tax dollar at work. And we can't provide it because we don't have the resources.”

I'm gonna guess that if they made the buses available to be subcontracted out to the private sector they could find a way. It would be a great way for drivers to make some extra $'s and attend the Bronco game; plus all those paying fans. Put a tip jar in front and count the appreciation on your way to the bank.

I understand the driver shortage problem; partly it reflects issues with fixed routes and fixed schedules or the need for running overtime routes.

I've read that many people would rather do DoorDash than work for RTD. Need a bathroom break? Simply turn off the App and take all the time you need. Plus you get to work in your own neighborhood or pick whatever neighborhood you like.

Some 'drivers' prefer working for Amazon. It can be a bit grueling but you don't have to worry about unruly passengers spitting in your face (or worse). Nowhere on the Denver Streets Partnership site did I see anything about making bus driver safety or needs a priority. Apparently it's not in the textbook; just give them lots of routes and lots of frequency. Talk about being out-of-touch with today's world.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I'm gonna guess that if they made the buses available to be subcontracted out to the private sector they could find a way. It would be a great way for drivers to make some extra $'s and attend the Bronco game; plus all those paying fans. Put a tip jar in front and count the appreciation on your way to the bank.

I understand the driver shortage problem; partly it reflects issues with fixed routes and fixed schedules or the need for running overtime routes.

I'm going to to go out on a limb and say it might be the rest of the context in the article surrounding ADA compliance that's probably the bigger issue. The Colorado Cross-Disability Coalition has probably threatened to sue RTD on this issue. Last time this accessibility issue raised its head all parents had to fold up their strollers and carry it their kids onto the bus or trains. Or was it when RTD removed ~20% of the seats of LRV's to make larger wheelchair zones?

RTD tends to do anything the CCDC asks of it.

Reasons to work for Doordash rather than RTD: no CDL required, no drug tests, someone else in your household works a job with benefits so you can free-load off them. Or you keep your take-home pay low enough you can qualify for government cheese.

[bulldurhamer]

https://www.9news.com/article/news/local.../73-ec19c218-1b44-474a-8de1-4ed20b0463a5

Denver’s trash fee structure will be $9 per month for a small trash cart, $13 per month for a medium trash cart, and $21 per month for a large trash cart.

In return for the new trash fees, Denver will start recycling weekly and compost services for everyone will be included.


Meanwhile, almost everyone leaves there trash and recycling bins in the alleys. This won't change, no matter what they say. So the obvious result is going to be that everyone gets the cheapest trash can then just throws the excess trash in someone else's bin or in the compost.

In short, this may be the most poorly thought out plan ever.

If they want to raise the price for trash and include recycling services, they should just do that. Making it a fight in the alleys with your neighbors will end up with a few people getting trash rage murdered, the recycling trucks filled with garbage, and the alleys will be left with filled with trash. Can't wait for this one.

[bulldurhamer]

“An audit of our own waste right here in Denver has shown that 50% of the material that we put in our trash cans is compostable,” Rink said. “And 25% is recyclable. That means only 25% of what we put in the trash is actually trash.”

The plan also eliminates the fee for composting and increases recycling pick-ups, both at no charge.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/lo...w-praise-from-some-criticism-from-others

So they haven't been picking up recycling but every other week and are surprised the trash cans have excess recyclable materials.

And from an logistics standpoint, I cannot wait to see how these compost bins are going to work out. The alleys are already full, there's simply not room for everyone to roll out a compost bin along with the other bins. But more realistically, it's hard enough to get poor people to use the trashcans at all. Now they're going to have to go through a voucher process to avoid payment then are expected to care what's compostable and whatnot? Hilarious. $20 says half of those compost bins will be filled with garbage. Hell, I don't even know what the compost bin is for exactly.

But it's all about being equitable I guess. We subsidize the poors transportation in the name of the RTD boondoogle. We're about to do the same with this sidewalk fiasco - interestingly enough, they're back replacing the curb crossings that are perfectly fine again. More sidewalk money going to do nothing useful again. Same thing happened 3 years ago. I'd like to see the books on this one too. Finally, it appears we'll be subsidizing the composting for the lower class. I'm all for it, but not really since I actually see how that's going to go. Waste of money but the council can claim some touchy feely — equitable blah blah blah victory.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

https://www.9news.com/article/news/local.../73-ec19c218-1b44-474a-8de1-4ed20b0463a5



In return for the new trash fees, Denver will start recycling weekly and compost services for everyone will be included.


Meanwhile, almost everyone leaves there trash and recycling bins in the alleys. This won't change, no matter what they say. So the obvious result is going to be that everyone gets the cheapest trash can then just throws the excess trash in someone else's bin or in the compost.

In short, this may be the most poorly thought out plan ever.

If they want to raise the price for trash and include recycling services, they should just do that. Making it a fight in the alleys with your neighbors will end up with a few people getting trash rage murdered, the recycling trucks filled with garbage, and the alleys will be left with filled with trash. Can't wait for this one.

This is done elsewhere, and it works.

Crazy imagination you have.

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by mhays

This is done elsewhere, and it works.

Crazy imagination you have.

if you live on a cul de sac.
we all don't, conner.

[mhays]

Seattle doesn't have many cul de sacs, yet it's worked (more or less) for many years. https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-s...es/collection-and-disposal/garbage-rates Similar rules apply to multifamily shared bins.

You seem to go off emotion, imagination, and conspiracy theories, so I'm sure you'll be ranting about Denver's program forever. I posted this for the others.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mhays

Seattle doesn't have many cul de sacs, yet it's worked (more or less) for many years. https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/your-s...es/collection-and-disposal/garbage-rates Similar rules apply to multifamily shared bins.

You seem to go off emotion, imagination, and conspiracy theories, so I'm sure you'll be ranting about Denver's program forever. I posted this for the others.

I rather enjoy bulldurhamer's comments. But the question to ask is does he make good points. Sometimes I agree; sometimes I don't. Here, he's made many good points.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/22/is-recycling-a-waste-heres-the-answer-from-a-plastics-expert.html

He says it is important for consumers to understand that just because you recycle an item does not mean it will be recycled in the end. The right question is “Can a garbage company, the actual company in charge of the recycling in the geography, recycle it at a profit?”

Generally, the answer is no as the economics of recycling no longer work for most things for many reasons.

https://hbr.org/1993/11/recycling-for-profit-the-new-green-business-frontier

Despite the proliferation of curbside collection bins and public awareness campaigns, recycling programs around the United States aren’t working.

Modern urban recycling ... has successfully created a tremendous supply of recycled newspapers, glass bottles, office paper, and other materials. But when it comes to consumer and business demand for the products made from these materials, the economics of recycling falls apart.

This is from the Harvard Business Review.

I'm not sure, can't speak to collecting garbage for composting. Guess I'd be curious to see how this might work in Denver. I can see residents putting a lot of — into the composting cart - since it's free. That should be fun. Everybody goes for the $9 cart and once that's full allocates the rest depending on their mood?

[mhays]

It's several benefits at once: Reducing the total volume of solid waste, reducing that goes to landfills, providing useful compost, and (perhaps last) providing recyclable material.

IIRC Seattle produces relatively little landfill waste vs. its population and workforce. This is a big part of it.

The point for this thread is people do follow garbage-sorting and graduated-fee programs when they're asked and there's enforcement.

The bin size charges are one of those little nudges that really do work. Every penny increase on cigarette taxes will reportedly spur a relatively predictable decrease in sales, which we know because 50 states and many countries have detailed evidence. Every 10 cents can reduce soda consumption. Every 5 cent bag fee will reduce bag overuse (turns out you can use em several times!).

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mhays

It's several benefits at once: Reducing the total volume of solid waste, reducing that goes to landfills, providing useful compost, and (perhaps last) providing recyclable material.

IIRC Seattle produces relatively little landfill waste vs. its population and workforce. This is a big part of it.

The point for this thread is people do follow garbage-sorting and graduated-fee programs when they're asked and there's enforcement.

The bin size charges are one of those little nudges that really do work. Every penny increase on cigarette taxes will reportedly spur a relatively predictable decrease in sales, which we know because 50 states and many countries have detailed evidence. Every 10 cents can reduce soda consumption. Every 5 cent bag fee will reduce bag overuse (turns out you can use em several times!).

It’s also leading to neighbor on neighbor warfare in the alleys, where cans are strewn wherever they fit, and where people use others’ cans all the time. (The City’s trucks only pick up on one side, so inevitably the across-the-alley neighbors have to put their cans in front of my house on trash day.) And the cans have no means for locking (I emailed the City to ask if I’d be allowed to secure my can, since I am paying for it. Short answer, no.) I installed a camera so at least I can go after the jerks and toss trash back over their back fences when they cheat.

Also, the amount of non-recycling that’ll go in the recycling bins now will be insane. And they have no means of enforcing this. Hope the sorting works well.

Also the statement that the alleys are already full is absolutely true. At least until they switch to trucks that can pick up on two sides. I have the unfortunate honor of being the house that has space, so I currently host bins for five houses. But I have started moving my neighbors’ cans because they are blocking my access now. They’ll have to figure something else out. Or I will disappear their cans.

We also leave nasty notes all the time. And this is in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Denver. I can’t imagine at my old house, where the alleys were already ground zero for inter-neighborly nastiness.

I guess in sum. He may be crazy. But he’s not wrong.

[TakeFive]

I don't have any particular issue with the concept of recycling. It's been around since the 1970's from what I recall.

In Phx, they pick up once a week and it's then taken to a Materials Recovery Facility where they sort out glass, paper, metal, cardboard and plastic into separate bales. The city is absorbing the cost and that's fine.

They used to export bales of paper to SE Asia but last I heard they didn't want any more. Apparently only about one-third of glass is considered good for recycling. Same for plastics; some types are desirable but a lot of it is not.

What I don't know is where all the material not considered desirable or economical to recycle ends up? That seems to be a bit of a mystery.

[Ich]

Originally Posted by mhays

This is done elsewhere, and it works.

Crazy imagination you have.

Not really an imagination. I live in Baker and my side yard is alley facing. People just leave their garbage and recycling bins on what’s technically my property. And there are so many that they don’t fit and spill into the sidewalk. And they don’t care because it’s not their property. Just a few weeks ago Denver Trash busted a portion of my fence. When the supervisor came out to look I asked him about it, told me to stop having people put their bins so close to my fence as if it’s my job to police it. I asked what we are supposed to do when you add compost bins and he just shrugged his shoulders. So yes for people who live in central Denver, it’s not well thought out. And it’s — because the alley is really the only place for me and my neighbor to put our bins and people already put their trash in ours, can only imagine it getting worse if you have to pay. Probably have to put a padlock on them or something.

[mhays]

So all these problems are under the current system?

The topic is whether the NEW system will create problems.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mhays

So all these problems are under the current system?

The topic is whether the NEW system will create problems.

It will very clearly exacerbate the problems. More cans and a financial incentive to (A) have the smallest black bin possible, and (B) clear opportunity (with minimal downside) to put any excess into (i) your neighbors' black cans or (ii) purple and green cans, polluting those with inappropriate refuse.

This is not difficult or complicated. Nobody is saying it can't work, or that it doesn't work elsewhere. But I do not know the first thing about those other systems.

The nuances of the system we are actually implementing very clearly (1) deny the realities of current issues (lack of acknowledgement of these issues is clear from both DOTI's statements and the discussions at Council; it's as if none of them live in the same City as the rest of us, which in the case of DOTI staffers, is frequently true, and (2) because there is no acknowledgement of today's challenges, there is not even discussion around whether the new financial incentive might serve to exacerbate those problems. Which common sense and the basic economics of personal incentives would suggest is beyond obvious.

Money incentivizes behaviors. When we implement a tax credit, we believe that. When we implement a tax/fee, it will do the same.

Yes, a tax on black cans, priced by quantity, will reduce the amount of stuff going into black cans. It's quite a leap of liberal people-are-good faith to suggest that means the amount of stuff generated that belongs in a black can also goes down, without considering other, very legitimate concerns about where that material might go.

When the City cut back the days for large item pickups, do you think that reduced the number of couches and mattresses dumped in the alleys? I seriously doubt it. (I just toss them into the middle of the alley - when they block traffic, then people care, and they seem to magically disappear.)