Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I've had some pretty sophisticated cuisine in Quebec outside of Montreal and in far and rural areas. No other province in Canada comes close to Quebec when it comes to small-town cuisine. And I'm talking about many non-tourist places and even ones that are not within reach of large cities.

My point wasn't to bash the provincial Quebec food scene, which has always been good, it's to point out that these debates can become contrived as people provide reasons why this or that thing doesn't count and then arrive at the conclusion that cities with outstanding food scenes that sometimes get global attention have no food culture.

I think a discussion of Canadian culture has to address relatively recent immigration in some way. It changed the whole palate of this city to the point where it's fairly distinct now. The heavily diverse parts of the big cities are probably 20% of Canada's population or more, and they will definitely continue to have an impact on the overall national culture.

Another thing to think about is that one is free to talk about culture or their own version of Culture, but the cost to heavy gatekeeping is one can end up losing track of most of what's going on and producing theories that just don't matter.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You literally need to start a letter-writing campaign to anglo-marketers like Loblaws (example below) to get them to correct this on their packaging. Those of us unfamiliar with Quebec culture will otherwise incorrectly equate the two forever, if not corrected.



I'm curious now, is there an accepted, accurate french name for Shepherd's Pie? One would think that these corporations would have Quebecois consultants before putting it into ink, but obviously they missed the target on this one.

“Unctuous mashed potatoes”

[Acajack]

Yes, pâté chinois does get translated as shepherd's pie by Loblaws and other companies but if you've had shepherd's pie in the UK (or, I might surmise, anywhere that hasn't been influenced by pâté chinois) it's different enough from pâté chinois.

Many a British person has ordered pâté chinois (translated as shepherd's pie on the menu) and exclaimed that that's no shepherd's pie. Ask them - they will tell you.

Now, I have no idea if I were to order shepherd's pie in a pub somewhere like Listowel, ON or Selkirk, MB (no reference to pâté chinois on the menu there I am sure) if it would resemble more what they eat in the UK or the dish in Quebec.

There are many theories as to the origins and name of pâté chinois. The main one I always hear is that it was a cheap meal made from easily available and inexpensive food items that was given to the Chinese workers who built the transcontinental railway.

[lio45]

On the “a letter campaign needs to happen to try to correct this” aspect, I can tell I’ve seen much worse (Mixed Nuts / Écrous mélangés for a bag of almonds/cashews/pecans/hazelnuts, for example) and did not bother contacting the producer, so I’m certainly not about to waste time fighting this uphill battle

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

What differentiates Montreal-style smoked meat from other styles of smoked meat?

There are lots of kinds of smoked meat, but the Montreal one AFAIK is the only one that is referred to a "smoked meat" or "Smoked Meat" by that name and that name only.

If you asked for a "smoked meat" sandwich, people wouldn't think you're asking for pastrami or smoked salmon, even if technically both are smoked meats.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Have you ever had a donair, especially a Halifax donair??? Donairs are nothing at all like kebabs. You do not serve a donair skewered on a stick. The manner of the cooking is entirely different. And, then, there is the donair sauce...........

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm thinking he meant gyros, as they are similar in physical appearance to donairs, but are worlds apart in actual make-up and flavour.

No, no. I know exactly what I am talking about, and am actually saying pretty much the same thing as you.

Maritime or Halifax donairs have their origins in the eastern Mediterranean's doner kebabs. Introduced to Halifax by a Greek immigrant 50-60 years ago I think.

They've evolved into something very different, unique and "local" I'd definitely agree.

And of course there is that sauce!

(I am a born Maritimer and was partially raised there, so yes I've had donairs - at Greco's and other places too.)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think a discussion of Canadian culture has to address relatively recent immigration in some way. It changed the whole palate of this city to the point where it's fairly distinct now. The heavily diverse parts of the big cities are probably 20% of Canada's population or more, and they will definitely continue to have an impact on the overall national culture.

It's interesting to see how palates have evolved within my lifetime. When I was a kid, something like sushi was rare and exotic. I think up until the late 80s there were maybe just a couple of places in Winnipeg that served it. By contrast, these days, any town in Manitoba big enough to have a supermarket will have sushi available... might not be the greatest sushi, but it's available nonetheless. Would have been unthinkable to expect to find sushi in Gimli 30+ years ago.

It feels like Indian food has gone super mainstream over the last few decades as well, in the sense that it used to be a fairly specialized ethnic genre, to the point where any mall food court is going to have a restaurant selling Indian fast food.

I'm curious to know where things will go in the next 30 years. Will eating insects take off? Will I react to the idea of eating grilled bugs the way that my dad did to the idea of downing some nigiri?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, no. I know exactly what I am talking about, and am actually saying pretty much the same thing as you.

Maritime or Halifax donairs have their origins in the eastern Mediterranean's doner kebabs. Introduced to Halifax by a Greek immigrant 50-60 years ago I think.

They've evolved into something very different, unique and "local" I'd definitely agree.

And of course there is that sauce!

(I am a born Maritimer and was partially raised there, so yes I've had donairs - at Greco's and other places too.)

I had a donair wrap in Halifax at and tbh I think the difference as compared to standard shawarma is overstated. So far as I could tell, the only real difference was that the sauce had a certain mild sweetness. If you just put regular garlic sauce on it, it would have been indistinguishable from the normal shawarmas wraps I'm used to... the ingredients other than the sauce seem identical.

But it's funny to think that tweaking one aspect of the ingredients somehow makes this "local cuisine"... I mean, a shawarma wrap with garlic sauce = imported Middle Eastern cuisine while a shawarma wrap with donair sauce = an authentic piece of the maritimes as much as scallops or lobster rolls. Really now.

(Also, why do people in the maritimes say "scollops")

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I had a donair wrap in Halifax at and tbh I think the difference as compared to standard shawarma is overstated. So far as I could tell, the only real difference was that the sauce had a certain mild sweetness. If you just put regular garlic sauce on it, it would have been indistinguishable from the normal shawarmas wraps I'm used to... the ingredients other than the sauce seem identical.

But it's funny to think that tweaking one aspect of the ingredients somehow makes this "local cuisine"... I mean, a shawarma wrap with garlic sauce = imported Middle Eastern cuisine while a shawarma wrap with donair sauce = an authentic piece of the maritimes as much as scallops or lobster rolls. Really now.

(Also, why do people in the maritimes say "scollops")

The donair meat is also different from shawarma meat - I say this as someone who lives in Shawarma Central.

[esquire]

^ I just ordered a donair without looking too closely at the meat, but to my eyes it looked and tasted very similar to what I'd expect when I'd get a beef or lamb shawarma here.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm curious to know where things will go in the next 30 years. Will eating insects take off? Will I react to the idea of eating grilled bugs the way that my dad did to the idea of downing some nigiri?

Given climate change, I’d say probably a plant-based protein that doesn’t pretend to be meat and/or lab-grown meat.

I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing - certainly not for sustainability, nor for our taste buds.

Lab-grown meat that tastes better than wagyu and costs less than ground beef could be a reality within our lifetimes.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Given climate change, I’d say probably a plant-based protein that doesn’t pretend to be meat and/or lab-grown meat.

I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing - certainly not for sustainability, nor for our taste buds.

Lab-grown meat that tastes better than wagyu and costs less than ground beef could be a reality within our lifetimes.

That would be great... I'd be 100% on board with that.

[kool maudit]

It's not the 90s anymore. How politicians act is downstream of a lot of other things. It would have seemed strange and marginal to be a grievance pol at the end of history. Even after 9/11, Howard Dean's "scream of rage" kind of ended his campaign. Now it finds purchase.

[kool maudit]

On vegetarianism, I think Indian cuisine is a better model than Quorn if you want to go that way. I like animal protein and feel good on it, but if I didn't, I'd rather just eat straight plants than something from Nestlé in a responsible-looking brown box with an ingredients paragraph the length of Moby Dick.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm curious to know where things will go in the next 30 years. Will eating insects take off? Will I react to the idea of eating grilled bugs the way that my dad did to the idea of downing some nigiri?

South Asian and halal food will be dominant in Canada, except for maybe in Quebec and the maritimes.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I just ordered a donair without looking too closely at the meat, but to my eyes it looked and tasted very similar to what I'd expect when I'd get a beef or lamb shawarma here.

Are you in Winnipeg? Where did you get the donair?? I have yet to try any east coast style donairs here.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm interested in how pate chinois got it's name. There is nothing vaguely Chinese about this food at all. I suppose it's like french fries, which I suspect has nothing to do with the French.

Frites actually DO originate from France. "Fries" are the literal English translation, and the "French" is well, because they come from France. This one at least checks out!

Have you ever had a donair, especially a Halifax donair??? Donairs are nothing at all like kebabs. You do not serve a donair skewered on a stick. The manner of the cooking is entirely different. And, then, there is the donair sauce...........

Doner Kebab, from which the Donair originates:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileonner_Kebab,_Cologne,_Germany_(1057919169).jpg

[Acajack]

I have heard that fries originated in Belgium.

Frites is short for pommes de terre frites. Or fried potatoes.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have heard that fries originated in Belgium.

Frites is short for pommes de terre frites. Or fried potatoes.

I guess the Belgians have no concern for their waistlines or their blood pressure (french fries and waffles).

Throw in the Congo and it becomes obvious they do not have a single shred of human decency.

Flanders or Wallonia???

[theman23]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I just ordered a donair without looking too closely at the meat, but to my eyes it looked and tasted very similar to what I'd expect when I'd get a beef or lamb shawarma here.

If you live west of Ontario, you’ve probably never had real shawarma. The “shawarma” you’re eating is Turkish donair. There’s a big difference in the meat (Shawarma is vastly superior). The Halifax donair is a spin on the Turkish donair, not shawarma.

Donair meat is puréed and seasoned then put on a spit to cook. It’s shaved when served resulting in a texture resembling well cooked luncheon meat. Shawarma meat is sliced before being put on a spit. It’s never puréed. The texture is closer to steak.

Actually, there is one local chain in Calgary that sells real shawarma. But by and large “shawarma” in western Canada is a fraud. It’s donair.

I should clarify that this applies to beef or lamb shawarma in Western Canada. A lot of shawarma places here do make their chicken shawarma meat the right way at least, but even then it’s not authentic because the rest of the wrap is dressed like a donair.