Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

The trouble is that it was a very specific confluence of events that led to there being a Canada as we now know it.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by lio45

Actually, I'd say that the only alternate timeline where there's none of the above (you can't just say "a timeline with no PQ but everything else similar", because if everything else is similar, then a PQ-Equivalent will emerge) is the one that has all the Canadiens assimilated into ordinary British subjects within a few generations after the Conquest.

In this alternate timeline, there's no 1837-1838 Patriots' Rebellion, so there's no 1849 Torching of the Parliament, and Montreal remains capital of Canada. (Basically, in this timeline, the entire Quebec City to Windsor Corridor is the culturalinguistic equivalent of today's Southern Ontario.)

I agree with you that if we "only" go back 50-100-150 years (i.e. if we don't go back to an era before Montreal's Canadien element is just irreversible at that point in time), then all alternate timelines end with an Anglo-Canadian city overtaking Montreal.

Agree with your assessment for sure. My point was that sooner or later Toronto would have overtaken Montreal as the metropolis of an English speaking country. As you've pointed out, the only way this may not happen would have been if the British had succeeded in assimilating la population Canadienne.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Well said.

Now the question remains: Can it be theirs and still ours in a greater context? Or does the eventual majority-minority thing rear its head again, and it splits?

I am kind of torn on the topic. I would be curious to see how young Quebec and ROC (those who don’t remember the 1990s, or just very vaguely) view the matter. Where the puck is going and all. Anecdotally, the consensus seems to be ‘Quebec is French and does its own thing’ with shrugged shoulders from this side, not too sure if the same holds true there.

I have a somewhat jaded view of the CBC or old media being too much up the pulse of things below a certain age group. They lost the plot awhile ago; there’s a reason why conventional TV is heavy into remakes to milk a dying cow.

"Quebec is French and does its own thing, and I'd definitely learn French if I moved there... until I actually move there personally, realize that a) lots of people speak English and that b) learning a second language is a huge effort, so I'll just continue to live there linguistically and culturally mostly as I do in the ROC"

The number of people actually doing this has been, I suppose, "manageable" for several decades, though the question is what the socio-political impacts will be of more and more people doing this as Montreal's economic and lifestyle attractiveness ramps up and the cost of living in its competitor cities becomes increasingly unaffordable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Quebec is in a pretty unique position though. It has more to lose from English fluency than countries like Norway. My school peers who didn't speak good English tended to stay and vice versa. (The ones who didn't had more limited options, but some still ended up in Switzerland and France.)

My knowledge of English has likely lost Quebec more business than it gained. Had I been unilingual, nearly all my business right now would be Quebec-centric.

I don't think Norway has to fear about losing talent to English-speaking neighbors so easily. Dynamic young Norwegians will likely attempt their high-tech startup in Oslo even if they speak English. (Just a guess; I've never been to Norway, but data seems to show Norwegians aren't moving out in high volumes.)

Individual Québécois might move to the ROC to some degree (though they're among the least likely of Canadians to change provinces) but I've seen zero evidence that the people of corporate Quebec (small, medium or large) have any interest at all in establishing their home base elsewhere in Canada.

It's definitely an important expansion market - and we've seen a lot of that with Quebec companies establishing themselves with a ROC base in the GTA.

But there are barely any Jean-Guy Tremblays who are CEOs and who will set up JGT Inc. in Toronto with a head office there and move there themselves, just because it's the biggest city in Canada.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Quebec is French and does its own thing, and I'd definitely learn French if I moved there... until I actually move there personally, realize that a) lots of people speak English and that b) learning a second language is a huge effort, so I'll just continue to live there linguistically and culturally mostly as I do in the ROC"

The number of people actually doing this has been, I suppose, "manageable" for several decades, though the question is what the socio-political impacts will be of more and more people doing this as Montreal's economic and lifestyle attractiveness ramps up and the cost of living in its competitor cities becomes increasingly unaffordable.

Couple this with the willingness of many companies to continue to allow remote work in the 'post-pandemic' world. Montreal becomes more attractive to many English speakers if they can bring their Toronto-based jobs with them.

Anecdotally, my Montreal-based employer was happy to accommodate me living in Toronto when I accepted the position in 2021. But I was even happier to relocate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Couple this with the willingness of many companies to continue to allow remote work in the 'post-pandemic' world. Montreal becomes more attractive to many English speakers if they can bring their Toronto-based jobs with them.

Anecdotally, my Montreal-based employer was happy to accommodate me living in Toronto when I accepted the position in 2021. But I was even happier to relocate.

I don't want to poison what has been a good stretch on here (as Rousseau rightfully pointed out) but speaking only metaphorically a major revival of the language and independence debates really is a sword of Damocles that constantly hangs over the heads of anglophones in Quebec, and every person who moves to Quebec with attitude of "French... pfft" and acts accordingly, moves that sword downwards a little bit closer to our heads.

It's almost like our equivalent of the Doomsday Clock.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't want to poison what has been a good stretch on here (as Rousseau rightfully pointed out) but speaking only metaphorically a major revival of the language and independence debates really is a sword of Damocles that constantly hangs over the heads of anglophones in Quebec, and every person who moves to Quebec with attitude of "French... pfft" and acts accordingly, moves that sword downwards a little bit closer to our heads.

It's almost like our equivalent of the Doomsday Clock.

This is true, but it seems as though there are structural and cultural shifts that will have the effect of containing it. Over the 16 years I spent in Montreal, there was a noticeable decline in "Anglos moving to become Anglo-Montrealers" and a rise in "Anglos moving as they might from London to Berlin".

The second circumstance might be highly visible, but it is also naturally a kind of fenced plot insofar as it relies heavily on remote work, freelancing, and the institutions of some Anglo-Elsewhere. And on the invisible level, it may have its own kind of entitlement, but it fundamentally doesn't seek to transform.

I remember McGill students in 1997 starting to pick up the West Island line as they contemplated maybe sticking around. By 2012, it was much more of a Prague to the same people, much more of a posting. And the Anglos I knew who became Montrealers only very rarely had 100% Anglo social worlds.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

This is true, but it seems as though there are structural and cultural shifts that will have the effect of containing it. Over the 16 years I spent in Montreal, there was a noticeable decline in "Anglos moving to become Anglo-Montrealers" and a rise in "Anglos moving as they might from London to Berlin".

The second circumstance might be highly visible, but it is also naturally a kind of fenced plot insofar as it relies heavily on remote work, freelancing, and the institutions of some Anglo-Elsewhere. And on the invisible level, it may have its own kind of entitlement, but it fundamentally doesn't seek to transform.

I remember McGill students in 1997 starting to pick up the West Island line as they contemplated maybe sticking around. By 2012, it was much more of a Prague to the same people, much more of a posting. And the Anglos I knew who became Montrealers only very rarely had 100% Anglo social worlds.

It may not actively seek to transform but it ends up transforming anyway, in the sense of a Malcolm Gladwell "tipping point", where a multitude of unrelated and unwitting personal decisions and behaviours can end up spurring big changes.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But there are barely any Jean-Guy Tremblays who are CEOs and who will set up JGT Inc. in Toronto with a head office there and move there themselves, just because it's the biggest city in Canada.

This doesn't seem that unique in a North American context. Most English-originated companies that are still privately held by their original founders don't just flee to Toronto or New York because "that's where big companies go". Once a company goes public and the emotional aspect of the decision is diminished, then that's typically when you see more traditional relocations. Even so, there's plenty of examples where it doesn't happen. Berkshire Hathaway probably should be in New York City if we were to objectively evaluate the pros and cons of Omaha vs. NYC given their business model. Cameco Corporation could probably find more synergies from proximity to their clients and capital in Toronto compared to Saskatoon, but they haven't up and left. Shopify still keeps its official headquarters in Ottawa, even though they needed access to the larger Toronto labour pool out of necessity to grow as quickly as they did. I can't think of many companies who've just completely uprooted themselves and moved senior management and operations to Toronto in the last couple decades. There are likely a lot of transplants who aren't originally from Toronto who have started businesses here. However, the inverse is also true with plenty of people who have left Toronto choosing to start businesses elsewhere.

The obvious exception to all this is Silicon Valley, but that's more because of the resources and the ecosystem that are essential in creating the foundations of the business. If a tech company makes it to a certain size in its original location, it tends to stay there even though the Bay Area would probably make more sense.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It may not actively seek to transform but it ends up transforming anyway, in the sense of a Malcolm Gladwell "tipping point", where a multitude of unrelated and unwitting personal decisions and behaviours can end up spurring big changes.

I'm not at all 100% disagreeing, and Montreal is not Berlin due to a) Canada, b) English dominance of North America and c) legacy Anglo institutions.

But Anglos having a period of their lives in Montreal, insofar as I observed them/us 1995-2012, were less and less interested in the way that longtime Montreal Anglos viewed the circumstance, and less and less interested in taking on the viewpoint of a group enjoying a city that could potentially be theirs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

This doesn't seem that unique in a North American context. Most English-originated companies that are still privately held by their original founders don't just flee to Toronto or New York because "that's where big companies go". Once a company goes public and the emotional aspect of the decision is diminished, then that's typically when you see more traditional relocations. Even so, there's plenty of examples where it doesn't happen. Berkshire Hathaway probably should be in New York City if we were to objectively evaluate the pros and cons of Omaha vs. NYC given their business model. Cameco Corporation could probably find more synergies from proximity to their clients and capital in Toronto compared to Saskatoon, but they haven't up and left. Shopify still keeps its official headquarters in Ottawa, even though they needed access to the larger Toronto labour pool out of necessity to grow as quickly as they did. I can't think of many companies who've just completely uprooted themselves and moved senior management and operations to Toronto in the last couple decades. There are likely a lot of transplants who aren't originally from Toronto who have started businesses here. However, the inverse is also true with plenty of people who have left Toronto choosing to start businesses elsewhere.

The obvious exception to all this is Silicon Valley, but that's more because of the resources and the ecosystem that are essential in creating the foundations of the business. If a tech company makes it to a certain size in its original location, it tends to stay there even though the Bay Area would probably make more sense.

I am not talking about moving existing companies founded elsewhere. I am talking about people moving to a city to found a business there.

People from various regions of Canada move to Toronto or the GTA to found companies or corporations in Toronto all the time.

My point is that Québécois people don't do that. People from all over Quebec (and to a lesser degree francophone Canada) move to Montreal to do that all the time.

I live in Gatineau and know or know of lots of people who moved to Montreal for business reasons. Some of them have gotten very rich.

My wife is from northern Ontario and knows people from her city who moved to Toronto for the same reason. (Though some actually move to Ottawa for this reason as well. Especially francophones.)

[kool maudit]

In short, I think that so long as the largest companies, institutions, and the professions unquestionably operate in French, that's your cordon sanitaire.

I am not sure how much leakage there is in that, either. I have visited Banque Nationale's HQ -- could have been Credit Lyonnais. In the law firms, the old West Island types were present but retiring even a decade ago. Levesque was right and 101 was not an overreach, as crazy as its enforcement has seemed from time to time. Bill 101 was what secured the bag.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

In short, I think that so long as the largest companies, institutions, and the professions unquestionably operate in French, that's your cordon sanitaire.

I am not sure how much leakage there is in that, either. I have visited Banque Nationale's HQ -- could have been Credit Lyonnais. In the law firms, the old West Island types were present but retiring even a decade ago. Levesque was right and 101 was not an overreach, as crazy as its enforcement has seemed from time to time. Bill 101 was what secured the bag.

There definitely is some leakage, as very recently we've seen controversies over a few Québec Inc. fleurons having CEOs who don't speak French, or don't speak much of it.

I don't know if this is simply a reflection of the global business world in 2022 where English continues to gain in power, but obviously Quebec sovereignists say that this is one of the "costs" (to the vitality of French) of being in Canada. And that this wouldn't happen - or least wouldn't happen as much - in an independent Quebec.

[kool maudit]

I hadn't heard about that. I guess having left does matter, and I'm not up on the latest at all. Because that is surprising to me.

Initially, I thought "I bet that there are a few CEOs in Sweden and Denmark who are from France or Ireland or something and don't speak the language", but I couldn't find any. I knew executives in Denmark who were non-Danish speakers, but not CEOs. I think the curtain falls before that level, when I think about it. I have actually heard EU McKinsey-types grousing about the "Danish boy's club" they thought was holding them back in Copenhagen, and this was plainly that.

A British friend once said of Denmark that "this country is just a little private club for the Danes", and he meant it in anger. At the time and still, the line just makes me think "what on earth else should it be?".

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There definitely is some leakage, as very recently we've seen controversies over a few Québec Inc. fleurons having CEOs who don't speak French, or don't speak much of it.

I don't know if this is simply a reflection of the global business world in 2022 where English continues to gain in power, but obviously Quebec sovereignists say that this is one of the "costs" (to the vitality of French) of being in Canada. And that this wouldn't happen - or least wouldn't happen as much - in an independent Quebec.

Well apparently English is on quite the rise in Paris - which albeit is larger and more global than Montreal and in a country that's larger and more global than an independent Quebec initially would be - but all the same, perhaps even an independent Quebec, in a world that is much more interconnected than in 1980 or 1995, would struggle to control this trend.

https://www.lapresse.ca/debats/opinions/2022-07-16/extraits/reveillez-vous-bordel.php

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Well apparently English is on quite the rise in Paris - which albeit is larger and more global than Montreal and in a country that's larger and more global than an independent Quebec initially would be - but all the same, perhaps even an independent Quebec, in a world that is much more interconnected than in 1980 or 1995, would struggle to control this trend.

https://www.lapresse.ca/debats/opinions/2022-07-16/extraits/reveillez-vous-bordel.php

English is also on a bit of a roll in a number of former French colonies in Africa:

Algerian leader in bold move to promote English at junior school
By Ahmed Rouaba
BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-62368931

Algerian President Abdelmadjid Tebboune has announced that the former French colony will start teaching English in primary schools later this year.
"French is a spoil of war, but English is an international language," he said.

Rwanda to switch from French to English in schools
Move seen as further snub to former colonial power
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/14/rwanda-france

The Rwandan government is to switch the country's entire education system from French to English in one of the most dramatic steps to date in its move away from Francophone influence.

Officially the change is to reposition Rwanda as a member of the East African Community, an organisation made up mostly of English-speaking countries such as neighbours Uganda and Tanzania.

Commonwealth admits Gabon, Togo as new members
https://punchng.com/commonwealth-admits-gabon-togo-as-new-members/

Togo’s Foreign Minister Robert Dussey said membership opened the door to 2.5 billion consumers in the Commonwealth realm, offered new education opportunities, and tapped a “craze” for English among his countrymen.

Rwanda, Togo and Gabon are all now members of the Commonwealth of Nations.

One wonders if an independent Quebec would remain a member of the Commonwealth, or would this be considered a colonial vestige to be amputated???

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

One wonders if an independent Quebec would remain a member of the Commonwealth, or would this be considered a colonial vestige to be amputated???

I seriously doubt that an independent Quebec would remain part of the Commonwealth. I assume it would become a republic and cut formal ties with the monarchy, but that's not an opinion that's necessarily unique to Quebec or to sovereignists within Quebec.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

A British friend once said of Denmark that "this country is just a little private club for the Danes", and he meant it in anger. At the time and still, the line just makes me think "what on earth else should it be?".

It can be asymmetric, and I understand why some people feel like they get the short end of the stick. Here in Canada we were running investor immigrant programs, there is still a big push for international study that feeds into a PR conveyor, and it became taboo to imagine any kind of advantages for Canadian-born people in Canada. At the same time it is much more difficult for Canadians to move to virtually all other countries with a comparable level of development. The UK is similar perhaps not for immigration but for openness to global capital. London has much been sold off to the highest bidder as cash has sloshed around, a lot of UKers can't compete in that arena, and there isn't necessarily anything else comparable for them. While you may get nice public housing for being a Dane in Copenhagen you don't get that in Canada.

Canadians are in a mediocre initial situation compared to most residents of developed nations. For all the talk of seamless integration with the US we have very limited mobility and labour rights in the US yet we mostly live along that border. Then on top of it we have a housing affordability crisis situation domestically, pretty similar to the UK, and there isn't a significant carve-out in that for Canadians.

I think this is one area of potential tension in Quebec and the "if Montreal becomes popular in China and you get booted from your apartment that's just how it is and if you have any problem with it you might be racist" attitude may not fly there. Then again, it's hard to tell what will happen beforehand and there are people who like the cash that flows in.

[O-tacular]

Careful MonctonRad. You'll invite a 20 page discourse on what would have happened if Napoleon had defeated the British and Quebec had become the seat of power in North America.

[samne]

If Canada eventually cuts ties with the Monarchy, I’d be fine still associating with the Commonwealth, much like India and Souh Africa. It’s a nice club to be part of similarly to Francaphonie.