Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

I am glad, however, that I was young in Montreal and not here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

IMO, Montreal can’t afford to be less bilingual and Anglo-accommodating than it is right now. It doesn’t seem conceivable to me that 9 million French speakers can support a global metro of 4.5 million people. The little European countries that do support a global city concede just as much ground to English, maybe more.

I think the Quebec government is lucid enough to know what the fine line it needs to walk is.

There are no real practical language barriers to a corporation operating in Montreal at the moment. They have access to lots of qualified staff who are able to function in English and any operations that need to take place in English will be in that language. There is a lot of hyperbole about this issue but even under PQ governments this was never really questioned or problematic.

That said, it's true that there are some barriers in Montreal to executives or the guy sweeping the floor living entirely within the same socio-cultural "feel" as they would in Toronto or Chicago, but on that I don't think Quebec is going to give up much. So if that's a deal-breaker, the answer is going to be "thanks for coming out..."

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

This does not, cannot, never will happen with French. If you have any affection at all for that language and its peoples, you have to accept this.

Sure, I understand this. French is one of those languages, even if nowadays it has fewer native speakers than, say, German, which is no longer one despite the German speaking peoples’ enormous clout.

But that’s why I think Montreal is probably in its optimal state, even if nobody is completely satisfied. I think it will always exist in language purgatory where English is kept at a simmer with always one eye on the pot - discouraged officially, but embraced to some extent off the books.

New Orleans is the threat of you go too far one way; being a sort of irrelevant place that’s a bit too big for its own country - a Montevideo, of sorts - would be the other.

[MonctonRad]

The sad thing is that Montreal used to be the alpha city of Canada (up until about 1970). The PQ and Rene Levesque scuppered this and the laurel was passed to Canada's midwestern metropolis (Toronto).

Montreal now seems resigned to it's new fate as an important regional Canadian city.........

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That said, it's true that there are some barriers in Montreal to executives or the guy sweeping the floor living entirely within the same socio-cultural "feel" as they would in Toronto or Chicago, but on that I don't think Quebec is going to give up much. So if that's a deal-breaker, the answer is going to be "thanks for coming out..."

The existence of a culture that unites not only Toronto and Chicago, but Toronto and Vancouver, Albuquerque, Miami and so on is long-term bad for Quebec. The fact that it did as it did in the middle of the American Century, fuelled by a decaying Church and post-colonial radio signals, was improbable enough.

(We have talked endlessly about Toronto, Montreal and separatism... but what if there wasn't a Toronto? What if there wasn't a 90%-of-Montreal option just down the road? It could have gone differently.)

Quebec as an asset is in negative long-term correlation with the current order, even as it is in tight short-term positive correlation. By that I mean, it flourishes in "Big Canamerica" and languishes on dips, but its highest potential valuation requires the Anglosphere circumstance to weaken in a very broad sense.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

But that’s why I think Montreal is probably in its optimal state, even if nobody is completely satisfied. I think it will always exist in language purgatory where English is kept at a simmer with always one eye on the pot - discouraged officially, but embraced to some extent off the books.

New Orleans is the threat of you go too far one way; being a sort of irrelevant place that’s a bit too big for its own country - a Montevideo, of sorts - would be the other.

Yeah, that's a good read, I think, and Montevideo is an interesting example for that.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The sad thing is that Montreal used to be the alpha city of Canada (up until about 1970). The PQ and Rene Levesque scuppered this...

They helped. The mines going to the Toronto Exchange and the US branch plants picking Ontario were huge, too. Toronto was bigger by market cap. by the '30s.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Montreal now seems resigned to it's new fate as an important regional Canadian city.........

That's not how it sees itself. It sees itself as the undisputed metropolis of Quebec.

[MonctonRad]

Montreal:

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Montreal:

The people who think that way have long since departed, save a few old cubbies at the Gazette and similar.

That said, I guess I departed, too.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The sad thing is that Montreal used to be the alpha city of Canada (up until about 1970). The PQ and Rene Levesque scuppered this and the laurel was passed to Canada's midwestern metropolis (Toronto).

Montreal now seems resigned to it's new fate as an important regional Canadian city.........

I think I may be the only current 'Montreal anglo' on this thread, so my 2 cents:

Montreal is increasingly connected globally and increasingly irrelevant nationally. It's comfortable in this space, and I don't think there's all that much sadness to it, aside from some old-school anglos who pine for the old days on their porches in Beaconsfield. Most Montreal anglos are at least functionally bilingual and don't spend much time thinking about the dynamics of Canada and Quebec. Montreal as Canada's metropolis is leaving the collective memory and we're largely better off for it.

The one caveat is that ironically and through absolutely no effort of its own, Quebec (Montreal) is seeing a slight uptick in anglos who are seeking relatively more affordable pastures. The interprovincial migration stats support this as the province has gone from annual net losses of 15,000 people to just even. Last year is the first year on record that Quebec had positive interprovincial migration with Ontario. Good chance a lot of migrants are former Montreal anglos that moved back and may have brought anglo spouses and children with them. In that sense, Bill 96 won't have a big impact on people that are already comfortable living here.

Anecdotally and within our own circles, we know several coworkers and friends that have returned after years 'abroad,' as well as newcomers from the Rest Of Canada.

[kool maudit]

Until fairly recently, the publisher of the Gazette of all venues was a guy from St. Catherines, Ontario with a French wife from Grenoble. She worked at La Presse. It was very in keeping with that non-national, global outlook... as, I suppose, was his recent move to San Francisco.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

They helped. The mines going to the Toronto Exchange and the US branch plants picking Ontario were huge, too. Toronto was bigger by market cap. by the '30s.

Indeed. This is something that's actually kinda forgotten with what happened during the 60s/70s.

There are plenty of historical reasons that Montreal was more of a natural metropolis and *cultural* capital than Toronto, but I wonder what the relative positions would be if things shook out a little different. It's often assumed that Montreal would end up the predominant alpha city, but it could just have easily turned into a Melbourne/Sydney situation. They really weren't that different in size throughout the first half of the 20th century (built form is another thing entirely) and dwarfed by a lot of American cities we consider to be marginal places today.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That said, it's true that there are some barriers in Montreal to executives or the guy sweeping the floor living entirely within the same socio-cultural "feel" as they would in Toronto or Chicago, but on that I don't think Quebec is going to give up much. So if that's a deal-breaker, the answer is going to be "thanks for coming out..."

"Thanks for coming out" is always easier to say when people's wallets don't get significantly lighter and standards of living remain relatively unchanged. That being said, Quebec already voluntarily underwent a metamorphosis that was undoubtedly far more economically damaging than Bill 96 (or likely any future language legislation) will be. If Francophones in Quebec still view those concessions from the 60s as necessary and "worth it", then I would imagine the sentiment is similar regarding any possible consequences today. My feeling is that if there actually are any reactions or consequences to Bill 96, they are going to be losses in future incremental growth, as opposed to dramatic changes to the existing status quo. Laurentian Bank is not going to pack up and move to Toronto. Bell is not going to close their Montreal Office. Air Canada may be more likely to choose Toronto for future expansion and hiring, but again, The Quebec economy is not going to immediately contract with thousands being forced to relocate or be out of work.

Montreal has been on a long-term trajectory towards a more balanced niche role. Likely fewer national or multi-national headquarters, but still a healthy employment base of regional offices that can be staffed primarily with french-speaking employees serving a more regional market. Bill 96 is not going to dramatically alter that trajectory.

[kool maudit]

I ran into some speculative fiction recently in which 1776 went differently and Montreal actually became the New York of it all, with something like the Seaway obviating the need for the Erie Canal that arguably catapulted NYC to its position.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I ran into some speculative fiction recently in which 1776 went differently and Montreal actually became the New York of it all, with something like the Seaway obviating the need for the Erie Canal that arguably catapulted NYC to its position.

Alternative histories are always fun to play around with.

The Quebec Act was designed to keep those pesky American colonists out of the Ohio country. What if the Revolutionary War had never occurred, and the Ohio country stayed in Quebec hands???

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Montreal has been on a long-term trajectory towards a more balanced niche role.

I can't think of a scenario in which it either regained the largest stock exchange post-1960s or retained 'alpha city' status without being the finance capital.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That's not how it sees itself. It sees itself as the undisputed metropolis of Quebec.

... and the second most important city in the (rapidly growing) French-speaking world, second only to Paris.

The claim has been made since I was a kid, and while technically no longer true demographically (Kinshasa and even Abidjan if considered francophone cities are larger) but today ironically it seems less of a technicality and less boldly aspirational than it did in the 1980s.

It really is happening and it feels like that when you're there.

I think Montreal turning its back on Canada as a whole is a bit exaggerated, ironically both by butthurt patriotic Canadians and bombastic Québécois nationalists. Being number two and a legacy big city is still a critically important tool in its toolbox, but no one there is crying about the fact that it no longer is and will never again be the uncontested metropolis of a country called "Canada".

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by niwell

Indeed. This is something that's actually kinda forgotten with what happened during the 60s/70s.

There are plenty of historical reasons that Montreal was more of a natural metropolis and *cultural* capital than Toronto, but I wonder what the relative positions would be if things shook out a little different. It's often assumed that Montreal would end up the predominant alpha city, but it could just have easily turned into a Melbourne/Sydney situation. They really weren't that different in size throughout the first half of the 20th century (built form is another thing entirely) and dwarfed by a lot of American cities we consider to be marginal places today.

Even with no PQ, no referendums and no Bill 101, I don't think there's a reality where Montreal is the undisputed Canadian metropolis today. At best, it's a Sydney/Melbourne dynamic as you pointed out. Toronto had already been growing faster (despite Montreal's rapid growth) which is natural - it was the largest English speaking city in an overwhelmingly English speaking country, making it the logical point of entry for newcomers from other parts of Canada and the rest of The World. It wasn't all that much smaller than Montreal to begin with and was at minimum as large of a business centre from the 1930s onward when the TSX surpassed the Montreal Exchange in volume.

[kool maudit]

Sydney and Melbourne is a really delicate balance, too. To my eyes, the mere presence of even a non-restive francophone majority is sufficient to tilt that decisively toward a more Rio/Sao Paulo circumstance.

One funny leading indicator... in "Goin' Down The Road" (1970), they drove clean through Montreal onto Toronto. Even non-Montreal Boomer Anglos somehow didn't see Montreal as cleanly "theirs" or "it", even when it was biggest.