Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I don't think most people are driving to YUL for lower prices (I've found prices to be very competitive flying out of YOW), they're driving to YUL for more flight options and/or to avoid transfers.

Yes for sure. But we were making a point about direct options from both airports, in anticipation of Porter's expansion.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I don't think most people are driving to YUL for lower prices (I've found prices to be very competitive flying out of YOW), they're driving to YUL for more flight options and/or to avoid transfers.

I disagree. I think most people are using YUL to try and save a few bucks. I'd rather have to transfer once at YUL than pack up the car, drive to Montreal, sit in traffic and potholes, pay for park n fly, and do it all again on return. What a headache.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

I disagree. I think most people are using YUL to try and save a few bucks. I'd rather have to transfer once at YUL than pack up the car, drive to Montreal, sit in traffic and potholes, pay for park n fly, and do it all again on return. What a headache.

I know it's only anecdotal but most people that I know that do it are trying to save money. I agree with most here though, it's not worth it and usually you're not really saving much money. I always fly out of YOW no matter where I'm going. Hopefully we see more direct options moving forward. I'd be happy to take advantage.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

I disagree. I think most people are using YUL to try and save a few bucks. I'd rather have to transfer once at YUL than pack up the car, drive to Montreal, sit in traffic and potholes, pay for park n fly, and do it all again on return. What a headache.

I am always amazed at how much driving people will do to save a few dollars on a flight. In some cases it may be rational (big families travelling), but more often it seems to be psychological - the cost in time, gas and wear and tear is largely discounted.

Though I will say that right now I would go to considerable lengths to avoid a transfer, particularly in Toronto.

[DTcrawler]

I used to worry I was being financially irresponsible by flying out of YOW when all my family and friends kept insisting on flying out of YUL like they do. But if I break down the money I save on gas (~$80) and parking (~$160) by not driving to Montreal, compared to my $4 transit fare when flying out of YOW, I just don’t see the appeal. Obviously there are exceptions, but I feel that many people fail to take the full cost equation into account when deciding which airport to depart from. Don’t even get me started on driving to YYZ.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I don't think most people are driving to YUL for lower prices (I've found prices to be very competitive flying out of YOW), they're driving to YUL for more flight options and/or to avoid transfers.

Very much this. Especially on the international side there's a bunch of carriers that are easier to access direct at YUL. Other than a Star Alliance partner there's no air service between YOW and YUL. And other than Air France-KLM there's no shuttle bus service from Ottawa to Montreal.

I'm sure there's some who drive for lower fares. But there's reasons from flying a specific carrier to maintaining status in an alliance other than Star that you might use YUL. For example, I know folks who will drive to YUL to travel by Qatar Airways to India. But also, just look at what Air Transat offers out of Montreal. And they are the largest Transatlantic operator in Canada.

If there's ever air-rail integration at Dorval, I expect demand through Dorval to climb substantially. Train from Tremblay is more convenient and comfortable than driving or even flying out of YOW and connecting at Pearson.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Yes for sure. But we were making a point about direct options from both airports, in anticipation of Porter's expansion.

Porter's expansion isn't entirely going to cure the driving to Montreal.

I get the sense that those of you who think driving to YUL is pointless are only thinking of domestic, transborder and sun destination trips. Driving to Montreal to start your all inclusive in Varadero is probably pointless. But there's a much bigger world that people need to travel to beyond that.

I'm excited for Porter to bring some competition on domestic and transborder routes. If we're lucky, they might even compete for sun destinations. Won't change the transoceanic connectivity (or lack thereof) at YOW.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get the sense that those of you who think driving to YUL is pointless are only thinking of domestic, transborder and sun destination trips. Driving to Montreal to start your all inclusive in Varadero is probably pointless. But there's a much bigger world that people need to travel to beyond that.

I'm not talking about domestic, transborder or sun trips exclusively. I choose YOW as a start for every type of trip, including international.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

I'm not talking about domestic, transborder or sun trips exclusively. I choose YOW as a start for every type of trip, including international.

Okay? But there's plenty of us who aren't fans of paying up to the AC-WS duopoly at YOW only to have to backtrack an hour to Toronto. I could see if you have status on Star Alliance or SkyTeam some motivation to maintain that. But otherwise, I would look at a balance between convenience and cost.

I say this as somebody who prioritizes flying out of YOW whenever it is convenient. It's ignorant to think people are clueless and mindlessly driving to YUL because they don't know better.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Okay? But there's plenty of us who aren't fans of paying up to the AC-WS duopoly at YOW only to have to backtrack an hour to Toronto. I could see if you have status on Star Alliance or SkyTeam some motivation to maintain that. But otherwise, I would look at a balance between convenience and cost.

I say this as somebody who prioritizes flying out of YOW whenever it is convenient. It's ignorant to think people are clueless and mindlessly driving to YUL because they don't know better.

I wasn't trying to say people are clueless or mindless. If it came across that way, I apologize. You suggested people were referencing domestic, transborder, and sun trips only. I was not talking exclusively about those types of trips. I wanted to clarify because your "hunch" was incorrect (when it came to my post at least).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I used to worry I was being financially irresponsible by flying out of YOW when all my family and friends kept insisting on flying out of YUL like they do. But if I break down the money I save on gas (~$80) and parking (~$160) by not driving to Montreal, compared to my $4 transit fare when flying out of YOW, I just don’t see the appeal. Obviously there are exceptions, but I feel that many people fail to take the full cost equation into account when deciding which airport to depart from. Don’t even get me started on driving to YYZ.

It's a stretch to think people are totally clueless about the costs involved. In my experience the only people driving to Montreal to catch flights are families who find the savings substantial across multiple tickets or some single traveler who is probably aiming to take a specific airline. The idea that somebody is driving alone to Montreal to save $50 on a plane ticket is far fetched. The costs add up quickly for a family of four.

You may be right on the math. Mostly I find that people discount the cost of gas in this type of calculation. Usually just looking at parking. That said, what the hell do you drive that it costs you $80 in gas to get back and forth from Montreal?

Also, VIA is great if you're flying through Dorval alone. $140 roundtrip and they provide a shuttle to from Dorval station to the airport. It'll be even better with a REM extension. And possibly HFR.

Lastly, your baseline is taking transit to YOW. But there's plenty of people who will drive and park at YOW. If you were going to do that anyway, the costs of going to YUL don't seem so big.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If there's ever air-rail integration at Dorval, I expect demand through Dorval to climb substantially. Train from Tremblay is more convenient and comfortable than driving or even flying out of YOW and connecting at Pearson.

This has been discussed before and I personally doubt this. Biz/leisure pax loyal to Star Alliance will never give up the extra status earnings flying gives them so no material increase in new trips there. Biz pax flying other alliances and leisure pax who dont care about FF stuff are already filling those flights anyway (driving, busing) so no material increase in new trips there, just maybe switching mode of transport. Unless you meant Dorval rail station demand, then sure. Also involves a huge assumption that things here will remain in a vacuum and never evolve. Don’t bank on that.

[Truenorth00]

I agree that nobody with Star Alliance status is going to switch. AC owns them. I would bet money that AFKL would cut both bus service and some feed to Toronto and book rail. Just like they do with SNCF at CDG. And Transat will have finally got an easy way to sell a connection to Ottawa. There's a lot of benefits to airlines that want to connect and aren't Star Alliance.

But whether numbers move or not, the competitive pressure will be useful. And personally, I root for that.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a stretch to think people are totally clueless about the costs involved.

I think that people regularly underestimate the true costs of driving, not just when going to airports.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that people regularly underestimate the true costs of driving, not just when going to airports.

That’s certainly true. I also think there are a lot of single people on here who forget that not everyone travels alone. The cost of airline tickets (and transit fares) multiply by the number of passengers, where as fuel, maintenance, and parking are mostly fixed regardless of the number of passengers. Also, the idea of sleeping overnight in YYZ lounge because of a canceled flight or missed connection when you are traveling with small children isn’t particularly appealing.

[Truenorth00]

^ This. If driving and flying out of Montreal saves me $75, it's not worthwhile. If it saves my family > $300, gas and parking can be offset. And on many a longhaul trip, those kind of savings can be found. Especially, given the oligopolistic pricing at YOW. This won't change much with Porter sadly. Would help bring prices down on many flights within a 5 hr radius of YOW.

[fanofYOW]

I really like all these different opinions on this issue, super amazing to see everyone's point of view. We all want one thing though, and that's more direct options out of YOW. Unfortunately YOW themselves have said that if people continue to drive to YUL, it hurts that cause. In reality though, people are still going to do it. We will probably get to a point where carriers will add direct routes to North American and sun destinations (Porter?) and also bigger carriers taking us to European hubs, but that growth will be slower for us due to the fact that our numbers don't grow as fast because of YUL. I actually find it incredible that YOW is still able to handle 5.1 million passengers pre-pandemic even though we are not a hub for any airline and YUL is only 1.5-2 hours away. Only about 2.5% of that traffic is connecting in YOW, whereas it's around 50% or even more in hub airports (give or take - and yes airports do count connecting passengers as a number for those who didn't know). YHZ doesn't even beat us in numbers even though so many passengers west of Halifax connect in YHZ often for their amazing selection of European destinations (2 different airports in London, Glasgow, Dublin, Paris, Frankfurt). We are a major travel market and airlines have to realize that.

On a side note about Porter.... Do you guys think that they might focus more on YOW in their initial debut over YYZ than what they originally planned because of the total insanity happening at YYZ right now? Also curious to know what you think AC might do if Porter steals a good chunk of their market share from YOW?

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 57

Today’s cancellation count: 2

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I really like all these different opinions on this issue, super amazing to see everyone's point of view. We all want one thing though, and that's more direct options out of YOW.

I personally care more about competitive travel options than the number of directs from YOW exclusively. Accessibility is about more than a number of flights serving a city. Though it can be a contributing factor.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Unfortunately YOW themselves have said that if people continue to drive to YUL, it hurts that cause. In reality though, people are still going to do it.

That's how free markets work. Which is why I think that the assertions on this thread that people are clueless or that airlines just don't know about how fantastic the market is in Ottawa is dumb. Businesses and people make rational economic decisions that make sense to them. And that includes their perceived value of convenience.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I actually find it incredible that YOW is still able to handle 5.1 million passengers pre-pandemic even though we are not a hub for any airline and YUL is only 1.5-2 hours away. Only about 2.5% of that traffic is connecting in YOW, whereas it's around 50% or even more in hub airports (give or take - and yes airports do count connecting passengers as a number for those who didn't know).

5.1M is kinda unremarkable for a metro of 1.4M.
Even for a non-hub. And while Ottawa isn't a hub, it's a focus city for three carriers right now. While Montreal undoubtedly steals some long haul, Ottawa should be doing better on domestic and transborder than it does.

An analogous situation here is Baltimore. Dulles is half the distance to Baltimore than Dorval to Ottawa. Pre-Covid BWI was handling 27M pax for a metro of 2.8M. BWI generates 2.6x the number of passengers per capita that YOW does despite having a large hub (Dulles) and major regional airport (Reagan National) less than 100km away.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

YHZ doesn't even beat us in numbers even though so many passengers west of Halifax connect in YHZ often for their amazing selection of European destinations (2 different airports in London, Glasgow, Dublin, Paris, Frankfurt). We are a major travel market and airlines have to realize that.

And we're back to, "Airlines are clueless....."

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

On a side note about Porter.... Do you guys think that they might focus more on YOW in their initial debut over YYZ than what they originally planned because of the total insanity happening at YYZ right now? Also curious to know what you think AC might do if Porter steals a good chunk of their market share from YOW?

YYZ and YOW serve different functions for Porter. YOW is going to be a scissor hub for Porter. YYZ is probably going to much more focused on origin-destination traffic for Toronto. It's hard to say which operation ends up bigger. I think they'll add investment after launch based on the competitive landscape and yield. Air Canada will definitely try to attack them with price dumping. It'll be interesting to see how it goes.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And we're back to, "Airlines are clueless....."

I don't think airlines are clueless, but they don't consider every tiny detail. Many routes between destinations exist because airports convince them and help them see why the route would be viable. They have the numbers, but that's all they have.