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  #15061  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 3:27 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
These lists are total jokes. Toronto and Vancouver are among the least livable cities on the continent: low incomes + unattainable housing.

(Montreal is unarguably more livable, yet doesn’t make the list.)
These lists are almost always based on statistics of core areas. They don't consider metro wide statistics. The semi in Brampton with an immigrant family renting the basement? Probably not in their calculations.
     
     
  #15062  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 3:32 PM
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Strange conversation going on.

Yes, European cities have trees.

And yes, European cities have parks within walking distance.

In The Guardian link that started this whole conversation, you can clearly see parks and trees in even the densest square kilometers, and more just outside.

A lot of this conversation seems to be centred on Barcelona, for some reason. I'd guess because it has the densest square kilometer. First, 53k in a square kilometer is crazy dense. The Gothic Quarter is an insane labyrinth of tight lanes but, like Leo pointed out, you don't need shade. When it does open up into squares, the squares have trees, like so. If you want a green break, Ciutadella Park is directly to the west. The Mediterranean and white sandy beaches are less than a kilometer from the southern edge. And at the northern edge there are multiple metro lines that will take you to the mountains 5km to the north.


The history of Barcelona's Gothic Quarter is really interesting. Barcelona backed the losers in the War of Spanish Succession, in 1714. Spain, therefore, forbid the city from growing beyond its walls. For the next 140 years, Barcelona became increasingly dense. By the 1850s it was something like the 19th century Kowloon Walled City. The Gothic Quarter, as roughly half of the old city, had an incredible population density of about 85k per square kilometer.

In 1854, Spain lifted the restrictions on Barcelona's growth. Barcelonans ripped down the city walls, converted the citadel to the west--built to oppress them--into a beautiful park, and expanded the city into Cerdá's Eixample--the expanse of iconic square street grid with chamfered corners.

So, that's why the Gothic Quarter is extremely dense and lacks space for a lot of street trees or large parks.



And I now hear that their (fake) lack of trees means European cities are dealing with the heat poorly. Are European cities dealing with the heat poorly? I don't know. There's less air conditioning than in NA. More of life goes on outdoors, in public spaces. I shouldn't need to explain why hiding from heat in air conditioned cars doesn't mean Canadian cities are handling global warming.

European cities are tuned to their traditional climates. This means that southern European cities--which tend to be built closer together, to create more shade, and that therefore tend to have fewer street trees--are already equipped to deal with the heat. Climate change is more of a problem in Northern Europe, where cities were built to maximize light during dingy winters.

Northern European spaciousness, though, leaves more room for trees, which already exist, and more of which cities are planting.

Seville, handling the heat like the always have.

Amsterdam, planting trees to deal with the unbearable sun and heat characteristic of North Sea cities.
I should point out I randomly dropped that pin in what looked like the densest part of Paris’ densest area, then linked to that view here. So there’s obviously a bias against trees in the method used to pick that sample. There are plenty of neighborhoods with trees, I never said the contrary and I would hope everyone here knows that

However, my point was that you can’t always have it all, and I don’t think it’s a deal-breaking flaw if a dense, vibrant neighborhood doesn’t have many street trees, especially if there are parks nearby.

Paris is generally pretty grey weather-wise, and getting sunlight in the windows of stories 3-4-5 versus just staring at foliage might be an argument against trees, in fact. Why not let the locals decide? If they really demanded trees, they’d be having them, through the sacrifice of some other characteristic. It’s not like trees can’t grow at Paris’ latitude.
     
     
  #15063  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:20 PM
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In response to Vancouver livability….

The last time I visited Vancouver the furthest east Van I went was GasTown before starting to seeing signs that I should turn back. Other than that the homeless/addiction population didn’t seem much more extreme than most NA cities.

What I did see was a very walkable city of mixed type housing. an incredible accessible park system. Also accessible bike and transit network.

All this said, I didn’t see many families in the core city.
     
     
  #15064  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Photo of Hong Kong 1964 vs 2016

Why has Vancouver been slacking?
You just illustrated why Hong Long is never on any most livable city list.
     
     
  #15065  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:25 PM
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The Upper East Side is one of the most livable areas on the planet, provided you’re at least a multimillionaire.

Russia is extremely livable — if you’re an oligarch.
     
     
  #15066  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:32 PM
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^ Yes that's the case with a lot of cities on those lists including several in Canada. If you already have an "in" they're great. High housing prices not only aren't a problem for those who already own real estate, they're actually an advantage since the increase probably means an increase to your net worth. And of course if your housing is being covered by your employer then it doesn't matter much either.
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  #15067  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:37 PM
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Scary graph that illustrates how screwed the Cdn housing market is:

[IMG]realestateprices by bcborn, on Flickr[/IMG]
Credit: https://twitter.com/mortimer_1/status/1550706699715035137
     
     
  #15068  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:41 PM
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If affordability is the main criteria then a place like Chicago would be really high in the list. Incomes are fairly high compared to housing there.

To me Montreal is a very livable city and should be high on the list from someone who only visits, muck like Vancouver. No idea what it would be like to live, work and raise a family in these cities though, which is the general basis of these lists…
     
     
  #15069  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:50 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by samne View Post
If affordability is the main criteria then a place like Chicago would be really high in the list. Incomes are fairly high compared to housing there.

To me Montreal is a very livable city and should be high on the list from someone who only visits, muck like Vancouver. No idea what it would be like to live, work and raise a family in these cities though, which is the general basis of these lists…
That's not the general basis of these lists.

Quote:
The EIU measures liveability using several factors like political stability, culture and environment, education, and infrastructure, which allow it to asscopign a score between 1 and 100 to every city. A score of 1 is “intolerable,” according to the EIU, while 100 is “ideal.” Scores in general improved on this year’s ranking, though the overall index score is still below what it was pre-pandemic.

Geopolitical unrest also impacted this year’s list, causing Russian and Eastern European cities to fall. Ukraine’s capital and most populous city, Kyiv, was removed from the list altogether.
Vienna went from 12th to 1st just by lifting Covid restrictions:

Quote:
Austria’s capital and most populous city topped this year’s list after slipping to number 12 in 2021, as COVID restrictions shuttered its cultural attractions.

“Stability and good infrastructure are the city’s main charms for its inhabitants, supported by good healthcare and plenty of opportunities for culture and entertainment,” wrote the EIU in its report. Vienna also held the number one spot in 2018 and 2019.
https://fortune.com/2022/06/23/most-livable-cities-economist-vienna-copenhagen-zurich/

Calgary moved up 15 spots for the same reason.
Kinda shows you how sensitive the ratings are to things other than affordability, transit infrastructure, urban design, etc that we would all consider as part of quality of life.
     
     
  #15070  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
That's not the general basis of these lists.



Vienna went from 12th to 1st just by lifting Covid restrictions:



https://fortune.com/2022/06/23/most-livable-cities-economist-vienna-copenhagen-zurich/

Calgary moved up 15 spots for the same reason.
Kinda shows you how sensitive the ratings are to things other than affordability, transit infrastructure, urban design, etc that we would all consider as part of quality of life.
Vienna, Calgary, Vancouver, Zurich et al are perennially on the list before covid. Covid was an anomaly for most things…
     
     
  #15071  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 6:49 PM
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I don't understand their metrics.

For me, livability is some combination of walkability, affordability, quality infrastructure, mild weather, and recreation amenities.
     
     
  #15072  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by samne View Post
In response to Vancouver livability….

The last time I visited Vancouver the furthest east Van I went was GasTown before starting to seeing signs that I should turn back. Other than that the homeless/addiction population didn’t seem much more extreme than most NA cities.

What I did see was a very walkable city of mixed type housing. an incredible accessible park system. Also accessible bike and transit network.

All this said, I didn’t see many families in the core city.
There is a section of all cities that are "avoid at all costs". The East Hastings area is Vancouver's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I don't understand their metrics.

For me, livability is some combination of walkability, affordability, quality infrastructure, mild weather, and recreation amenities.
I'd bet those are the base points. But if you really look at the cities, they seem to have other things that help them.
     
     
  #15073  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I don't understand their metrics.

For me, livability is some combination of walkability, affordability, quality infrastructure, mild weather, and recreation amenities.
A couple of those are in Mercer’s criteria. The others can be found online.
     
     
  #15074  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 9:00 PM
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A lot of them have crime/safety as a criteria as well I believe. That would certainly explain why it's rare for US cities to place high on such lists despite many being quite prosperous.
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  #15075  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Scary graph that illustrates how screwed the Cdn housing market is:

[IMG]realestateprices by bcborn, on Flickr[/IMG]
Credit: https://twitter.com/mortimer_1/status/1550706699715035137
I would love to see this broken down to compare provinces. I bet it would be incredibly diverse.
     
     
  #15076  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 4:17 AM
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I would love to see this broken down to compare provinces. I bet it would be incredibly diverse.
The problem is, the GTA would skew all of Ontario. Just like The Lower Mainland would skew all of BC. By cities or CMAs is better.
     
     
  #15077  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 7:39 AM
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I love how all these 'rankings' fans, the same clowns who equate 'building heights' with success, lump all European cities together. They throw Lisbon and Oslo, London and Budapest into a blender and voila! "European Cities!!"

And this carries on to talk of "European Style" this and to "European Style" that and you realize how unsophisticated most people in Canada are - when they don't even realize that Europe consists of dozens of countries, all with different priorities, geographies, climates, histories.

They're all simply "European!!"

Anything that hasn't seen before (and no, a week in London or Paris doesn't count) that disrupts their Tim Horrible's drive thru routine must therefore be described as "European Style".

These rankings are idiotic.

They're like trying to prove that "My partner is better than your partner' based solely upon statistics.

But the clownish, anguished arguments are hilarious!

By all means, carry on!
     
     
  #15078  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The problem is, the GTA would skew all of Ontario. Just like The Lower Mainland would skew all of BC. By cities or CMAs is better.
Ofc it would skew it because the majority of people in both provinces live in the areas you just listed.

Besides in the case of Ontario it has become a province wide issue I mean look at house prices in Hamilton, KWC, London, and even Sudbury have prices that are completely unaffordable.
     
     
  #15079  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek View Post
Ofc it would skew it because the majority of people in both provinces live in the areas you just listed.

Besides in the case of Ontario it has become a province wide issue I mean look at house prices in Hamilton, KWC, London, and even Sudbury have prices that are completely unaffordable.
Yes, everywhere has seen skyrocketing prices, but you can still find houses in Northern ON for under $500k Try that within 100km of Toronto.
Point is, even people from ON do not say they are from ON. They subdivide it by geographic area.
     
     
  #15080  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 3:45 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Yes, everywhere has seen skyrocketing prices, but you can still find houses in Northern ON for under $500k Try that within 100km of Toronto.
Point is, even people from ON do not say they are from ON. They subdivide it by geographic area.
What's the price income ratio and how does that compare to the GTA? Absolute prices are somewhat irrelevant.
     
     
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