Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Is it possible to have a few trains just running between Surrey and Langley? That might help.

It could be useful, perhaps even more so in conjunction with TransLink's proposed Coquitlam-Surrey bus link over the Port Mann Bridge. For example, a RapidBus from Coquitlam Central to 152 Street (via 7/Port Mann/152nd) would make for a faster commute from Coquitlam to Langley, as compared to SkyTrain Millennium-Expo (westbound to Columbia)-Expo (eastbound). I would imagine that as the system expands and matures, we might see some additional short runs and shuttles to match population growth. Beyond that, it would be interesting to explore interconnections between existing lines to allow for greater flexibility. The aforementioned Coquitlam Centre-152nd Street route could allow for a line from Langley to Coquitlam.

[waves]

With Translink planning an overhaul of Columbia Station, it would be nice to see a third platform built. Lougheed Town Center already has a three platforms and so if Columbia were to have one as well a two-train shuttle could be operated between Columbia and Lougheed without impacting service on either the Millennium Line or the Expo Line.

A small upgrade to Lougheed town Center with the reconfiguration of the existing westerly switch and an addition of an easterly switch, Lougheed could also operate the Millennium Line trains and the new shuttle without conflict points allowing them to be independent.

At full build out with this configuration you could have a maximum of:

• Waterfront - Langley @ 90 secs
• Columbia - Lougheed Shuttle @ 4 min (Single track at Columbia and Lougheed Stations)
• UBC - Lafarge/PoCo @ 90 secs

Source: https://i.imgur.com/gG7HwE9.jpg

[madog222]

Ok sure it would be great to have a third platform at Columbia but that is not at all practical to build.

[officedweller]

Yeah, the only place to build it would be under the street/lane to the north and a bit east.

[SpongeG]

installing an escalator for the east-bound platform would be a welcome upgrade/addition.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

installing an escalator for the east-bound platform would be a welcome upgrade/addition.

There are soo many Expo stations that could do with some work but... how much of it will happen during our lifetime?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Remind me why the original Braid-Sapperton branch couldn't go directly north and east to Coquitlam? That paired with an independent Arbutus-Lougheed line would've solved a whole lot of problems.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Remind me why the original Braid-Sapperton branch couldn't go directly north and east to Coquitlam? That paired with an independent Arbutus-Lougheed line would've solved a whole lot of problems.

When they constructed the Millennium line, they needed to connect the new tracks to the Expo Line tracks for access to OMC1. The only solution they had at the time was to divert down to Columbia. Braid and Sapperton weren't originally the northern branch of the Expo Line, they were the compromise southward diversion of the Millennium Line (that happened to open first). It wasn't about going north, it was about going south.

Now, I'm not incredibly familiar with the design of the Millennium Line viaducts, but it's probably non-trivial to drop in a Braid - Burquitlam straight shot now, and you'd also skip Lougheed Town Centre while doing it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

When they constructed the Millennium line, they needed to connect the new tracks to the Expo Line tracks for access to OMC1. The only solution they had at the time was to divert down to Columbia. Braid and Sapperton weren't originally the northern branch of the Expo Line, they were the compromise southward diversion of the Millennium Line (that happened to open first). It wasn't about going north, it was about going south.

Now, I'm not incredibly familiar with the design of the Millennium Line viaducts, but it's probably non-trivial to drop in a Braid - Burquitlam straight shot now, and you'd also skip Lougheed Town Centre while doing it.

I mean this.

Guess I found my answer: Karens.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

installing an escalator for the east-bound platform would be a welcome upgrade/addition.

I think that's in the plans.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I mean this.

Guess I found my answer: Karens.

No, they came to the conclusion that having too many branches off the Expo Line would max out capacity too quickly, so they built the separate / parallel Millennium Line along Lougheed Highway.

As chowhou mentioned, the phasing of the M-Line first required connecting to the Edmonds OMC.

Dug up these 1990 articles that mentioned the change from an extenion of the branch along Edmonds.
It eventually became a Lougheed (rather than Hastings) route to Coquitlam.



Note the comment by Vancouver Mayor Gordon Campbell that he did not want another line coming into downtown Vancouver (he favoured a surburb to suburb (Surrey-Richmond) connection).





Consultations in 1991 which show the Lougheed route (not Hastings), and which is noted as "deleted" from further consideration.
It was later resurrected by the NDP (because it served NDP ridings).

[Dave2]

My favourite part of all that is the Lou Sekora quote, “We can’t wait seven or eight years” for SkyTrain to Coquitlam Centre.

Sorry Lou, you’ll be waiting for 26 years!

[Diegotheartist1]

it's really interesting to see how far we have come in terms of proposed routes for the system. Some routes made it (Brunette & Lougheed-Broadway, Richmond-Airport-Vancouver), others are still in the works or postponed (North Shore), and others were scrapped (Cariboo, etc).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by officedweller

No, they came to the conclusion that having too many branches off the Expo Line would max out capacity too quickly, so they built the separate / parallel Millennium Line along Lougheed Highway.

As chowhou mentioned, the phasing of the M-Line first required connecting to the Edmonds OMC.

Dug up these 1990 articles that mentioned the change from an extenion of the branch along Edmonds.
It eventually became a Lougheed (rather than Hastings) route to Coquitlam...

... Note the comment by Vancouver Mayor Gordon Campbell that he did not want another line coming into downtown Vancouver (he favoured a surburb to suburb (Surrey-Richmond) connection)...

... Consultations in 1991 which show the Lougheed route (not Hastings), and which is noted as "deleted" from further consideration.

It was later resurrected by the NDP (because it served NDP ridings).

"Because politics" makes sense. Otherwise, the only logical course of action is to put Lougheed Station on North & Austin and continue the M-Line to Coquitlam.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

"Because politics" makes sense. Otherwise, the only logical course of action is to put Lougheed Station on North & Austin and continue the M-Line to Coquitlam.

I think that was more due to the phasing.
Lougheed Station was supposed to be oriented north-south, but with the phasing of the line, that would have required a "through train" on the M-Line to enter the station and reverse out - so they oriented Lougheed Station east-west instead.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think that was more due to the phasing.
Lougheed Station was supposed to be oriented north-south, but with the phasing of the line, that would have required a "through train" on the M-Line to enter the station and reverse out - so they oriented Lougheed Station east-west instead.

The decision is also governed by which branch will need higher capacity to meet the demand. In the case of Lougheed station, that's the branch heading towards SFU, Central Broadway and Downtown Vancouver. If the station had a north-south alignment, then at buildout the capacity would naturally be highest on the branch heading towards Port Moody.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Did nobody ever consider Arbutus-Lougheed as a separate line? Sure, they'd have needed to build a new OMC, but they ended up doing that anyway... and now we're stuck with a legacy loop that's next to useless for commuters.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Did nobody ever consider Arbutus-Lougheed as a separate line? Sure, they'd have needed to build a new OMC, but they ended up doing that anyway... and now we're stuck with a legacy loop that's next to useless for commuters.

I doubt it but I did suggest something similar a long time ago back in 2016 in the transit fantasy thread .

Originally Posted by scryer

Dark Blue = Expo Line
Yellow = Millennium Line
Green = Evergreen Line
Light Blue = Canada Line
Purple = West Coast Express
Solid Orange = Bus Rapid Transit
Spotted Orange = B-Line buses
Gray = Long Distance Trains

I would obviously update it with some changes now as things have changed since 2016 (like the Expo line being extended to Production-Way) and I have learned much more about Vancouver's network - particularly I wouldn't have the Evergreen crossing the Burrard Inlet the way it is now and I would completely change the North Shore line, and I would definitely not have the Arbutus LRT line providing service as the Hastings line ; and at the time, I really thought that Surrey was going to get in bed with a shyte LRT network. I also would completely change the Millennium line alignment .

But I digress...

The only reason that I pulled up this outdated design of mine in this thread is that I wanted to point out that there is a way to take advantage of the legacy loop by interlining it a little bit. Sure, interlining gets funky with train switches and such but IMO it's no different than (functionally speaking) having 1 line branch off into 2 or more destinations like what is proposed with the Expo line:



I think that, as the system continues to extend in the near future that it would make more sense (to me) that we return back to the Millennium/Expo interlining that we had before.

I say that because I think that the Expo line is doing too much for the passenger volume it will have to handle in the above image from the study . I feel that the Expo line will always be leading the other lines in terms of PPHPD especially after extending out deep into Surrey and Langley; and that it would serve the region best if it was interlined at key areas (like the southern portion of the legacy loop) where those other lines would eventually branch off of the Expo line, providing passenger relief on train-by-train basis based on their destinations.

It's like the legacy loop was built nearly 200 years before its time. Because I can see it functioning really well as an interlined passenger sorting tube when the Skytrain starts extending along Hastings, the North Shore, and to Port Coquitlam. But right now, it's just confusing to work with.

And another reason why I would say that it would be cool to go back to the old interlined system is that Translink is already eyeing up making some changes to Columbia station - which was very much underbuilt IMO.

Those are just my thoughts though.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by scottN

The decision is also governed by which branch will need higher capacity to meet the demand. In the case of Lougheed station, that's the branch heading towards SFU, Central Broadway and Downtown Vancouver. If the station had a north-south alignment, then at buildout the capacity would naturally be highest on the branch heading towards Port Moody.

Yeah, that probably factored in, but there still would have been a direct route to Vancouver, as the fork of the wye faced south.
Coquitlam was supposed to be the biggest Regional Town Centre north of the Fraser (similar to Surrey Central south of the Fraser, but not as big). So feeding into Coquitlam alligned with that goal.
Building up both sides of the Fraser is referenced in one of the Province articles, above.
The north-south alignment was to provide an easier transfer between Coquitlam and Surrey. Encouraging the suburb to suburb commute was popular back then.
I think Coquitlam lost out on that reallignment.

[dpogue]

Realistically, the interlining isn't with the expectation that passengers would ride all the way around. It's a consideration of how to best serve the busiest sections of the line(s) with additional capacity.

They could do turnbacks from UBC to Lougheed, and they could do turnbacks from Waterfront to Columbia, but that ends up being inconvenient with switch movements, and there is some degree of demand for service between Lougheed and Columbia, so it makes sense from a capacity perspective to use the same trains to serve the busy sections on both lines.