Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Opposite example, I have friends in Switzerland, who I know go to the mountains all the time, despite being car-free. (Costs an arm and a leg to have a car over there.)

Not Just Bikes made a video a few days ago on the Swiss rail system. And it blew my mind. I can't even imagine that kind of coordination in a neighbourhood in Canada. Let alone a whole province. And one of the examples he gave in there was a train station that served a cafe, a hiking trail and a ski lift. It saw trains every half hour.

• Video Link

Originally Posted by lio45

If we ever want to convince middle-class-and-above people to give up their private spaces in order to content themselves with public ones (the way you see in the dense parts of cities like Paris and Barcelona), they'll be part of that conversation.

This is an important point. Applies to more than just the trade off between public and private spaces.

[someone123]

My area is middle to upper middle class condos (that cost more than most housing in Canada probably) and there's a lot of public or shared space while the amount of living space is modest. I think people use public space a lot in downtown Vancouver too and spend a fair amount of time outdoors. There is no culture of apartment dwellers here obsessed with private space; it is unattainable for most people who don't have it already.

The tent parks were a minority around the DTES for the most part and some got cleaned up during the past year or two, like Oppenheimer.

I don't really feel like Vancouver is behind places like Barcelona, or at least parts of it aren't. The real difference is Vancouver has a bunch of lower density and suburban areas that are hard to retrofit as well as NIMBYism. The higher density areas are not suburban and I don't really long for Spanish level infrastructure. Some of Europe is better than here, and a lot of it is worse.

We also have equity issues here because the housing market went nuts and the province decided we won't have more greenfield development, so there's a younger generation that can't own houses and an older generation that owns tons of land in a belt outside of the inner city and has a completely different vision of how things should be that is just not available to most people starting out.

[Truenorth00]

Vancouver is actually decent in many ways. And ahead of most cities in North America when it comes to urbanism and trying to densify. The challenge with Vancouverism though is that this kind of urbanism just isn't affordable for many people or viable for families. Montreal's plexes are better on those fronts. There's a limit to how many people are willing to raise kids in an 800 ft² high rise condo that costs $800k. Other cities going down the densification path should probably learn from that.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not discounting the density achieved by the European models, but there seems to be a severe lack of green space there. I know when I traveled to a few big cities in Europe the limited green space was very well used, and it's something I appreciate in even the most urban parts of Vancouver.

I like to use the example of those cities since it shows how you can have much higher density while still being among the most desirable cities in the world - not just from a visitor perspective, but also general quality of life. Nowhere in Canada will ever have that type of high lowrise density and I'm perfectly ok with that. Paris city proper is at 21,000/km2 while Vancouver is 5,749.9/km2 and Toronto is 4,427.8/km2. Brooklyn by comparison is 14,917/km2 and SF 7,194.31/km2. Clearly there's a lot of middle ground between us and the most dense cities and we can become a lot denser without going nearly as far as them. I'd be happy with density increased to the 7-10k mark if it was done fairly consistently across entire metro areas.

I do happen to enjoy the Montreal version of density partly because of the summer greenery. I remember seeing some photo threads showing buildings completely draped in vines, the streets lined with trees and the outdoor stairs adorned with planters. In fact, the densest parts of all cities in Canada are green, so spreading more of that type of density across the metro area doesn't require becoming a concrete jungle. In fact, there are plenty of suburban areas in Canada that are no more green than the inner cities.

[Truenorth00]

That said, here's the good points of Vancouverism:

• Video Link

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

There is no culture of apartment dwellers here obsessed with private space; it is unattainable for most people who don't have it already.

I came close to upgrading in my condo building to a penthouse that included a generous rooftop deck space. The combination of increased taxes and strata fees put the decision out of our comfort range (the increased price for unit size was less of a concern).

I wouldn't call it an obsession, but I may be developing one for private rooftop space. Everything else we have is perfect at our current location.

[memememe76]

Weird to use Paris and Barcelona as examples. If you ever plan a trip there, you will be inundated with stories of petty thefts and scams on the streets and especially in their subway systems. I mean, what parks in Vancouver are devoid of people?

I have never been to Barcelona. I have been to Paris--loved it and found it safe. I find Vancouver safe too. Residents of all cities complain about their cities.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not discounting the density achieved by the European models, but there seems to be a severe lack of green space there. I know when I traveled to a few big cities in Europe the limited green space was very well used, and it's something I appreciate in even the most urban parts of Vancouver.

Yeah, there's several reason European cities have trouble handling heat and that's surely one of them. A few crappy shrubs in a concrete planter doesn't take the place of a tree canopy, whether it is heat relief or carbon absorption.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by lio45

I randomly dropped the Street View orange guy in that densest square km in Paris and it looks like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.891118,2...PA5D_Iq5IysxVFgJI67cA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Interesting that these two are outliers. There are a bunch of cities at 30k people but Paris and Barcelona are at 50k+. I wouldn't have guessed there was such a gap.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

most of the streets in Eixample are treed. Here is a random location, a few blocks from the hotel I was staying in: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3942244,...PuXqFMX_PPAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US

compare how much nicer Barcelona looks with trees than lio's Paris example. similar density but trees make all the difference to me.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Vancouver is actually decent in many ways. And ahead of most cities in North America when it comes to urbanism and trying to densify. The challenge with Vancouverism though is that this kind of urbanism just isn't affordable for many people or viable for families. Montreal's plexes are better on those fronts. There's a limit to how many people are willing to raise kids in an 800 ft² high rise condo that costs $800k. Other cities going down the densification path should probably learn from that.

I'd argue it's not the model (style of development) but the sell / buy market of each respective city. Vancouverism can work if not limited to less than 25% of the city's land base.

[jonny24]

My favourite part about living in the lower city in Hamilton is how lush and green it is in the summer. With all the alleys, rail trails and escarpment it's wonderful to walk around as long as you aren't on a main drag. And the nicer parts of King/Main/Barton are also the part with trees along them (i.e. international village)

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by jonny24

My favourite part about living in the lower city in Hamilton is how lush and green it is in the summer. With all the alleys, rail trails and escarpment it's wonderful to walk around as long as you aren't on a main drag. And the nicer parts of King/Main/Barton are also the part with trees along them (i.e. international village)

agreed whole heartedly. one of Hamilton's strengths is being surrounded by greenery and many waterfalls! thanks to straddling the escarpment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Weird to use Paris and Barcelona as examples. If you ever plan a trip there, you will be inundated with stories of petty thefts and scams on the streets and especially in their subway systems. I mean, what parks in Vancouver are devoid of people?

I have never been to Barcelona. I have been to Paris--loved it and found it safe. I find Vancouver safe too. Residents of all cities complain about their cities.

People have always bitched about their cities but there has definitely been a change in the past couple of years - especially in Paris. Stuff like what we're discussing in the homeless and "civility" thread is on the upsurge there too and is becoming a much bigger issue than just crotchety curmudgeons complaining about the good old days.

One of my kids is spending part of the summer in France and this kid (in spite of a young age) is a pretty seasoned traveller already and even though we're talking about a smaller regional city than Paris, there is apparently a much more tense atmosphere on the streets (both day and night) than even 2-3 years ago.

[WarrenC12]

Good video. I'm not sure I can take putting the emphasis the first syllable VAN-cou-ver without going crazy, but I did my best.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I have never been to Barcelona. I have been to Paris--loved it and found it safe. I find Vancouver safe too. Residents of all cities complain about their cities.

They sure do! I got a chance to travel extensively in the early 2000s (for work). It took a lot of time in other cities to appreciate where I live more.

Great places to visit for sure, but daily life is another thing.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by Wigs

agreed whole heartedly. one of Hamilton's strengths is being surrounded by greenery and many waterfalls! thanks to straddling the escarpment.

Really? So you're saying not only is building around the escarpment not a problem but a feature? huh..interesting

Don't let the Greenbelt defenders hear that.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Really? So you're saying not only is building around the escarpment not a problem but a feature? huh..interesting

Don't let the Greenbelt defenders hear that.

Hamilton straddled the escarpment many decades before the Greenbelt was a thing

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not Just Bikes made a video a few days ago on the Swiss rail system. And it blew my mind. I can't even imagine that kind of coordination in a neighbourhood in Canada. Let alone a whole province. And one of the examples he gave in there was a train station that served a cafe, a hiking trail and a ski lift. It saw trains every half hour.

• Video Link



This is an important point. Applies to more than just the trade off between public and private spaces.

Easier to do when a country like Switzerland is basically slightly larger than Vancouver Island 20-25%)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I'd argue it's not the model (style of development) but the sell / buy market of each respective city. Vancouverism can work if not limited to less than 25% of the city's land base.

Vancouverism happened specifically because they have a huge yellow belt. And this is the same model being attempted in places like Mississauga where they are driven to concentrate density along a few key corridors, by a similarly high proportion of land already dedicated to single family homes. I don't think we'd see nearly as many skyscrapers if quadplex was the basic residential zoning allowed.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Easier to do when a country like Switzerland is basically slightly larger than Vancouver Island 20-25%)

Ahhh the usual Canadian whine about size.

Alright, why doesn't Vancouver Island or the Lower Mainland or the Golden Horseshoe or even the Island of Montreal have that level of service and integration?