The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread

[Hackslack]

TFC fans a absolutely loyal no doubt from what I can see as far as attendance and in game atmosphere when I briefly have it on my screen.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

TFC fans a absolutely loyal no doubt from what I can see as far as attendance and in game atmosphere when I briefly have it on my screen.

They weren't too loyal a few years ago when the team tanked.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

They weren't too loyal a few years ago when the team tanked.

Literal fake news.

2016 26,538
2017 27,647 (won MLS)
2018 26,628
2019 25,048
2020 COVID
2021 COVID
2022 23,676* (up to July 9)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_seasons

What isn't captured in these numbers is that these are just MLS matches. 2018's dip can be attributed to TFC making a run in the Champions League, where they played an additional four matches between 23-29K.

[elly63]

They seem to be trending DOWNWARD

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

They seem to be trending DOWNWARD

Grasping for straws, I guess.

Here's what a downward trend looks like. I'll only include their tenure at BMO:



I'm hesitant to even use 2022 numbers given that we're still dealing with COVID, but the numbers line up with the pre-2020 trend anyway. No data point for 2021 because COVID.

This entire argument is pointless anyway because there's more to team viability, especially in MLS, than just crowd sizes. It applies more to CFL teams given their revenue stream breakdown.

[thurmas]

Toronto support for TFC has been pretty good and consistent attendance wise. Argos are in my opinion now where they need to be relocated to London or Kitchener as MLSE shows zero interest in rebuilding them and the market base in Toronto just doesn't seem interested in CFL football inside the GTA. Outside the GTA it works in Hamilton and Ottawa but not Toronto.

[elly63]

There's no need to deflect the argument to the Argos, it's no secret that MLSE does nothing to support them aside from paying the bills and they are terrible in terms of public support. And to compare a Canadian league to an American league with 10 times the population to draw from is disingenuous.

But the bloom has gone off the MLS rose from their early days. That's not to say TFC isn't still successful, but the crazy prognostications of enlarging BMO to 40-50k seats has come down to earth. In stadium attendance is dropping, their fanbase is getting older. Combine that with what is happening with the rest of the world in terms of the pandemic and we may never see those hey days again.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

There's no need to deflect the argument to the Argos

This doesn't seem to stop every topic from being turned towards MLS.

Originally Posted by elly63

it's no secret that MLSE does nothing to support them aside from paying the bills and they are terrible in terms of public support.

This sounds like you're talking about the Argos. Public support of TFC is generally good, as can be seen from gameday turnout. MLSE is actively supporting TFC by signing international, World Cup-quality players in the leadup to the World Cup in Toronto, along with signing one of the best managers in MLS. More on that below.

Originally Posted by elly63

And to compare a Canadian league to an American league with 10 times the population to draw from is disingenuous.

Both teams play in Canada. CFL teams have no issue being successful in Winnipeg or Saskatchewan. The CFL does not have that same traction in Toronto, and to a lesser extent Vancouver or Montreal. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they play American teams and everything to do with the product and sport. Blaming the CFL in Toronto's decline on Toronto being 'American' or 'more interested in American things' just feels like a coping mechanism.

Originally Posted by elly63

But the bloom has gone off the MLS rose from their early days.

You've been saying this for at least half a decade. MLS continues to grow and CFL continues to trend downwards, at least in the Toronto market.

Originally Posted by elly63

That's not to say TFC isn't still successful, but the crazy prognostications of enlarging BMO to 40-50k seats has come down to earth.

The stadium is only being renovated for the World Cup. Nobody seriously thinks TFC could earnestly fill a stadium that large on a consistent basis.

Originally Posted by elly63

In stadium attendance is dropping, their fanbase is getting older.

TFC, or the Argos? It's true for one of these teams and not the other. Argos have difficulty getting crowds for eight home games and TFC will be drawing 2.5x the amount over 18 competitive home matches spread over two competitions. CFL teams can be viewed as just regular season attendance because that's all that they play but MLS teams will generally be hosting both MLS matches as well as domestic Cup matches and, in TFC's case, occasionally Continental matches as well. I know you know this already.

Originally Posted by elly63

Combine that with what is happening with the rest of the world in terms of the pandemic and we may never see those hey days again.

We'll return to normal eventually, if we haven't already. One team at BMO is capable of getting crowds in the 25-30K space and one team draws better in small town Nova Scotia.

I get that you don't like MLS, or me because I defend it, but some of these points are so plainly easy to see. 'MLS is a pyramid scheme!' yet it still continues to grow and exist. 'TFC is losing money!' yet they've signed a single player that makes what three and a half CFL teams do combined. It's no secret that TFC's recent Italian-incursion is a marketing ploy to feed in to World Cup 2026 and it begs to reason that TFC will be riding a significant wave until at least that point. The question that needs asking is whether or not the Argos fit into any sort of picture at BMO beyond 2026. I bet they'd be better off in London.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Both teams play in Canada. CFL teams have no issue being successful in Winnipeg or Saskatchewan. The CFL does not have that same traction in Toronto, and to a lesser extent Vancouver or Montreal. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they play American teams and everything to do with the product and sport. Blaming the CFL in Toronto's decline on Toronto being 'American' or 'more interested in American things' just feels like a coping mechanism.
.

I'd say the latter part of that is pretty demonstrably true. So on that front, there isn't really a debate to have.

The only real questions regarding the matter are whether it's a good or bad thing, a big deal or not, or simply inevitable?

[thurmas]

Rare instance here where I agree with JHikka

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd say the latter part of that is pretty demonstrably true. So on that front, there isn't really a debate to have.

I'd like for you to expand on that if you could. Toronto is American in the same sense that Canada is generally culturally American writ-large. If anything it's more 'world city' [sic] than American.

Originally Posted by thurmas

Rare instance here where I agree with JHikka

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Blaming the CFL in Toronto's decline on Toronto being 'American' or 'more interested in American things' just feels like a coping mechanism.

That isn't the total reason for the Argos demise but certainly is part of the reason

Originally Posted by JHikka

You've been saying this for at least half a decade. MLS continues to grow and CFL continues to trend downwards, at least in the Toronto market.

I think that was more a counter to your purposeful trolling of the CFL thread. Until recently, I've never denied TFC's popularity in stadium, but they certainly have limited appeal outside the stadium. Why then was the MLS/TFC thread merged with the National team thread where I was posting news and the NT thread had activity. The MLS/TFC thread was dead, no one was posting there.

Originally Posted by JHikka

Nobody seriously thinks TFC could earnestly fill a stadium that large on a consistent basis.

Yes, there were people saying that, I'll give you credit for not being crazy enough to do so however.

Originally Posted by JHikka

I get that you don't like MLS, or me because I defend it, but some of these points are so plainly easy to see.

That's not quite true. I have no problem with FCM or the Caps or even TFC for that matter, even less now that they're finally starting to grow some Canadian talent. My issue was with many of their zealot "fans" who actively campaigned against the Argos only when they moved to BMO. I would never have a problem with you defending TFC but I did have a problem with you trolling the CFL thread (to which others agreed) and using your mod powers to delete and edit posts that went against your agenda. I ceased having an issue with you when you stopped doing that and I didn't have to screenshot everything I posted.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Rare instance here where I agree with JHikka

So you mostly haven't agreed with his past postings?

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by elly63

So you mostly haven't agreed with his past postings?

Moreso his posts in the political threads i disagree with a fair bit

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Moreso his posts in the political threads i disagree with a fair bit

I agree with you there. The enemy of my enemy...how does that go?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

That isn't the total reason for the Argos demise but certainly is part of the reason

Most other teams in Toronto have been able to survive and either grow. In fact, i'd argue that all teams are either as popular or more popular now than they've ever been - except for the Argos.

The thing about big cities is that if something isn't good, whether it's a restaurant or a store or a sports team, it doesn't last very long. Cities don't sit around on things they don't like. There are a million other things to do. The Argos don't have the space in Toronto anymore because the market changed and grew. More teams entered the space and sucked up the marketshare that the Argos used to hold. That applies to the Jays, Raptors, and now TFC.

The Toronto Rock are a good lead to follow for the Argos, I guess, in that they've relocated and found a home in Hamilton. I imagine the same will happen with the Argos if MLSE give up on the project.

Originally Posted by elly63

I think that was more a counter to your purposeful trolling of the CFL thread.

The CFL thread was recently literally playing a guessing game of what the Argos home attendance would be and frequently entertain the idea of the team relocating. You can call my posts 'trolling' if you'd like but it seems like this sort of discussion permeates throughout the CFL community regardless of whether or not I visit. At least now more CFL fans are willing to accept that widespread changes need to be brought in to right the course of the league.

Originally Posted by elly63

Until recently, I've never denied TFC's popularity in stadium, but they certainly have limited appeal outside the stadium.

How would you quantify this?

Originally Posted by elly63

Why then was the MLS/TFC thread merged with the National team threads where I was posting news and the NT thread had activity. The MLS/TFC thread was dead, no one was posting there.

This forum is not an accurate representation of real life, or the influence of sports teams in real life.

Originally Posted by elly63

Yes, there were people saying that, I'll give you credit for not being crazy enough to do so however.

Lots of people will say crazy things. Projecting those things onto reality is up to you.

Originally Posted by elly63

That's not quite true. I have no problem with FCM or the Caps or even TFC for that matter, even less now that they're finally starting to grow some Canadian talent. My issue was with many of their zealot "fans" who actively campaigned against the Argos only when they moved to BMO. I would never have a problem with you defending TFC but I did have a problem with you trolling the CFL thread (to which others agreed) and using your mod powers to delete and edit posts that went against your agenda. I ceased having an issue with you when you stopped doing that and I didn't have to screenshot everything I posted.

I see.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'd like for you to expand on that if you could. Toronto is American in the same sense that Canada is generally culturally American writ-large. If anything it's more 'world city' [sic] than American.

Oh, Toronto is definitely "world city" in outlook though Torontonians often conflate "global" with "American". Well, everyone does that to some degree given the planetary ubiquity of US culture, but no one does it quite to the degree Torontonians do.

While this goes against a certain commonly-held view there, I also don't find Toronto has a "world city" vibe that significantly surpasses that of any number of other cities, including NYC, London and Paris of course, or even arguably Vancouver or (gasp! ) Montreal here in Canada.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh, Toronto is definitely "world city" in outlook though Torontonians often conflate "global" with "American". Well, everyone does that to some degree given the planetary ubiquity of US culture, but no one does it quite to the degree Torontonians do.

I'd wager that a city of millions effectively on the border with the US with many connections to US cities would inherently be connected with the US in the same way that most of Canada's popultion is tied to the US. Anglophone New Brunswick is more American than Toronto, and i'd say these days that rural Alberta/Prairies is more American than Toronto.

Originally Posted by Acajack

While this goes against a certain commonly-held view there, I also don't find Toronto has a "world city" vibe that significantly surpasses that of any number of other cities, including NYC, London and Paris of course, or even arguably Vancouver or (gasp! ) Montreal here in Canada.

We'll agree to disagree.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

IAnglophone New Brunswick is more American than Toronto

I believe your sphincter is now making pronouncements for you. No offense intended.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Most other teams in Toronto have been able to survive and either grow. In fact, i'd argue that all teams are either as popular or more popular now than they've ever been - except for the Argos.

The thing about big cities is that if something isn't good, whether it's a restaurant or a store or a sports team, it doesn't last very long. Cities don't sit around on things they don't like. There are a million other things to do. The Argos don't have the space in Toronto anymore because the market changed and grew. More teams entered the space and sucked up the marketshare that the Argos used to hold. That applies to the Jays, Raptors, and now TFC.

The Toronto Rock are a good lead to follow for the Argos, I guess, in that they've relocated and found a home in Hamilton. I imagine the same will happen with the Argos if MLSE give up on the project.


The CFL thread was recently literally playing a guessing game of what the Argos home attendance would be and frequently entertain the idea of the team relocating. You can call my posts 'trolling' if you'd like but it seems like this sort of discussion permeates throughout the CFL community regardless of whether or not I visit. At least now more CFL fans are willing to accept that widespread changes need to be brought in to right the course of the league.


How would you quantify this?


This forum is not an accurate representation of real life, or the influence of sports teams in real life.


Lots of people will say crazy things. Projecting those things onto reality is up to you.


I see.

The toronto rock option makes the most sense for the Argos move to Hamilton or London and get better stadium dates and a market base that is more cfl friendly and easier for the team to grab a larger chunk of the market rather than the crowded toronto market that appears permanently lost