Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[jlove390]

There are now signs up in the area saying Fraser Highway will be closed between 140th and 148th street June 27-Oct 1 for the road widening.

[superelevation]

Originally Posted by GMasterAres

That's the thing, both those spaces in Langley are already giant parking lots. 203 = massive parking lot for the existing Casino. 196 = the massive parking lot for the mall. A purpose built parkade would be better than the surface parking.

I agree to the other poster (not you) that it would be ideal to build density, but we're decades away from Willowbrook mall being redeveloped. Heck the land owner at Guildford said 10-15 years before density there, and Surrey Central is still at least 10 years out from seeing any major density increase on its surface parking and one is in "downtown Surrey" and the other way closer.

It would be a pipe dream to think there will be major development in Willowbrook in the near-term. Parking need will be needed immediately when SkyTrain opens so 6 years and these things take time to plan.

We also just need way better bus service, while parking is good for giving people living in the more rural areas access, there should certainly be a lot more frequent service in Langley! Parkades are going to fill a few trains at most! Right now the trunks are all like every 30 minutes! That better become every 15!

[invisibleairwaves]

Yeah I think the parking concerns are a bit overblown. 200th st. BRT is in Translink's 10-year plan so that might just coincide roughly with the extension opening. That plus hopefully more frequent service along 208th puts a pretty big chunk of Langley's population a short bus ride away from the train.

Besides, driving in Willowbrook is a nightmare as it is, I can't imagine how bad it would be if we were encouraging people to get in their cars and go there for a park-and-ride.

[superelevation]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Yeah I think the parking concerns are a bit overblown. 200th st. BRT is in Translink's 10-year plan so that might just coincide roughly with the extension opening. That plus hopefully more frequent service along 208th puts a pretty big chunk of Langley's population a short bus ride away from the train.

Besides, driving in Willowbrook is a nightmare as it is, I can't imagine how bad it would be if we were encouraging people to get in their cars and go there for a park-and-ride.

Indeed, spent a lot of my life in the Langley area with a car and driving is MISERABLE anywhere near the bypass. The whole benefit of SkyTrain for me was knowing I wouldn't have to deal with the insane traffic, rail crossings, and poor driving.

[WarrenC12]

Province and Feds approved $3.94B extension to Langley. Will open in 2028.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Province and Feds approved $3.94B extension to Langley. Will open in 2028.

I just saw this. I thought this money was already committed?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I just saw this. I thought this money was already committed?

The bigger the amount, the more times it gets announced. I do think this is a project starting signal though, maybe there was a final approval that didn't happen until now.

[nname]

What's interesting is that the business case reveals the planned future SkyTrain operating pattern and frequency. Note everything can still change, but this is probably what they use to determine how much trains to order...

2028 Peak
Waterfront - 140th St (1/3) - 5m 54s (5,460 pphpd)
Waterfront - Langley (1/3) - 5m 54s (5,460 pphpd)
Waterfront - Production (1/3) - 5m 54s (5,460 pphpd)
Combined Expo - 1m 58s (16,380 pphpd)

Lafarge - Arbutus (1/1) - 3m 24s (7,920 pphpd)

Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 5m 30s (3,130 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 5m 30s (3,130 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 2m 45s (6,260 pphpd)

2028 Off-Peak
Waterfront - 140th St (1/4) - 10m (3,220 pphpd)
Waterfront - Langley (1/4) - 10m (3,220 pphpd)
Waterfront - Production (2/4) - 5m (6,440 pphpd)
Combined Expo - 2m 30s (12,880 pphpd)

Lafarge - Arbutus (1/1) - 5m (5,390 pphpd)

Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 6m 40s (2,580 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 6m 40s (2,580 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 3m 20s (5,160 pphpd)


2035 Peak
Waterfront - 140th St (1/3) - 5m (6,800 pphpd)
Waterfront - Langley (1/3) - 5m (6,800 pphpd)
Waterfront - Arbutus (1/3) - 5m (6,800 pphpd)
Combined Expo - 1m 40s (20,400 pphpd)

Lafarge - Arbutus (1/2) - 5m (5,390 pphpd)
Combined Millennium - 2min 30s (12,190 pphpd)

Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 4m (4,300 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 4m (4,300 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 2m (8,600 pphpd)

2035 Off-Peak
Waterfront - 140th St (1/4) - 10m (3,400 pphpd)
Waterfront - Langley (1/4) - 10m (3,400 pphpd)
Waterfront - Production (2/4) - 5m (6,800 pphpd)
Combined Expo - 2m 30s (13,600 pphpd)

Lafarge - Arbutus (1/1) - 5m (5,390 pphpd)

Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 6m 40s (2,580 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 6m 40s (2,580 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 3m 20s (5,160 pphpd)


2050 Peak
Waterfront - 140th St (1/3) - 4m 30s (7,560 pphpd)
Waterfront - Langley (1/3) - 4m 30s (7,560 pphpd)
Waterfront - Arbutus (1/3) - 4m 30s (7,560 pphpd)
Combined Expo - 1m 30s (22,680 pphpd)

Lafarge - Arbutus (1/2) - 4m 30s (7,560 pphpd)
Combined Millennium - 2m 15s (15,120 pphpd)

Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 4m (6,660 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 4m (6,660 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 2m (13,320 pphpd)

2050 Off-Peak
Waterfront - 140th St (1/4) - 10m (3,400 pphpd)
Waterfront - Langley (1/4) - 10m (3,400 pphpd)
Waterfront - Production (2/4) - 5m (6,800 pphpd)
Combined Expo - 2m 30s (13,600 pphpd)

Lafarge - Arbutus (1/1) - 4m 30s (6,800 pphpd)

Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 6m 40s (4,000 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 6m 40s (4,000 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 3m 20s (8,000 pphpd)

Note: all the capacity are 85% of "crush load" capacity. So by 2050, the planned "crush load" capacity for each of the line during peak hours are:
Expo: 26,700 pphpd
Millennium: 17,800 pphpd
Canada: 15,670 pphpd

With the current plan, Canada Line will be running at max capacity, Expo Line will be close.

I guess when UBC extension opens, they'll just extend all the Arbutus service to UBC? So we may actually get to see a UBC-Waterfront train after all

Source: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/transp...appendices/appendix_d_ridership_memo.pdf

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by nname

Source: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/transp...appendices/appendix_d_ridership_memo.pdf

This table from the same source has me confused and intrigued.



Does this imply that along with realigning the north branch Expo Line from Waterfront-Production to Waterfront-Arbutus, they also plan on realigning the Millennium Line away from Lafarge-VCC-(Arbutus) to Lafarge-Waterfront?

[nname]

It doesn't mention in the text, so I go by what's described in the text at the end of page 11.

If they go with Lafarge-Waterfront, then the downtown portion of Expo Line must handle 36,000 pphpd by 2050. I don't even think Toronto Subway can handle that capacity, let alone our SkyTrain system.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by nname

It doesn't mention in the text, so I go by what's described in the text at the end of page 11.

If they go with Lafarge-Waterfront, then the downtown portion of Expo Line must handle 36,000 pphpd by 2050. I don't even think Toronto Subway can handle that capacity, let alone our SkyTrain system.

Actually, this figure confuses me the most.



Millennium Lafarge-Waterfront alignment via a Renfrew-Commercial Broadway-Main Street connection???

Not saying I'm against it, but I'm in big territory right now.

Of course, I'm extrapolating the "BAU" scenario for the Millennium line onto the "SLS" scenario so maybe this is all just filler to justify the "SLS" scenario.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I just saw this. I thought this money was already committed?

I think the formal approval was pending the release of the business case.

Surrey-Langley SkyTrain: Full steam ahead as B.C. gov't formally approves $3.94-billion project
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...bc-formally-approves-3-94billion-project

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by nname

I guess when UBC extension opens, they'll just extend all the Arbutus service to UBC? So we may actually get to see a UBC-Waterfront train after all

Even with the Waterfront-Arbutus route in 2035, it's the return of the "pan-loop" Millennium Line!

Originally Posted by chowhou

Does this imply that along with realigning the north branch Expo Line from Waterfront-Production to Waterfront-Arbutus, they also plan on realigning the Millennium Line away from Lafarge-VCC-(Arbutus) to Lafarge-Waterfront?

Lougheed Town Centre Station was built to allow a direct route to Columbia (with a reversing maneuver), and the "T-Line" from the 1996 LRSP was intended to facilitate travel from North of Fraser (Tri-Cities) to South of Fraser (Surrey).
So this pattern will allow a single transfer to Surrey from Coquitlam.

[nname]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Actually, this figure confuses me the most.

Millennium Lafarge-Waterfront alignment via a Renfrew-Commercial Broadway-Main Street connection???

Not saying I'm against it, but I'm in big territory right now.

Of course, I'm extrapolating the "BAU" scenario for the Millennium line onto the "SLS" scenario so maybe this is all just filler to justify the "SLS" scenario.

And also the fact that the map also doesn't match the table because it shows the M-Line branches at Commercial Broadway, rather than all going to Waterfront (while Expo goes to Arbutus).

Maybe it's just the same shuttle running every 9 min they used a few years ago? Again, it doesn't mention anywhere except for just popping up in the table and graph.

And the fact that it's just really not possible to insert another train in between two that's already at 90s headway.... SkyTrain *may* function at 75s headway, but definitely not 45s...

[nname]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Even with the Waterfront-Arbutus route in 2035, it's the return of the "pan-loop" Millennium Line!

But it's the Expo Line now. Maybe they'll come up with a new name for it, so we'll get our 4th line.

Just wait till they extend the Expo Line from Waterfront to Lonsdale via Second Narrows

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by nname

It doesn't mention in the text, so I go by what's described in the text at the end of page 11.

If they go with Lafarge-Waterfront, then the downtown portion of Expo Line must handle 36,000 pphpd by 2050. I don't even think Toronto Subway can handle that capacity, let alone our SkyTrain system.

The LaFarge - CBD route would replace Waterfront-Production Way so no extra capacity is needed on the Expo Mainline.
It also means that SFU passengers will have to transfer at Lougheed the single stop to Production Way.

In 2035 and beyond, the LaFarge - Arbutus route also disappears, replaced by 2 parts of the Expo line looping around and the Millennium Line from LaFarge. Forcing Coquitlam riders to transfer at Lougheed. Strange.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by nname

But it's the Expo Line now. Maybe they'll come up with a new name for it, so we'll get our 4th line.

Just wait till they extend the Expo Line from Waterfront to Lonsdale via Second Narrows

On one of those Metro websites, pan-loops (routes that double back on themselves) were said to be very rare, and the old Millennium Line route was one of them.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Actually, this figure confuses me the most.



Millennium Lafarge-Waterfront alignment via a Renfrew-Commercial Broadway-Main Street connection???

Not saying I'm against it, but I'm in big territory right now.

Of course, I'm extrapolating the "BAU" scenario for the Millennium line onto the "SLS" scenario so maybe this is all just filler to justify the "SLS" scenario.

Yeah, that map is off unless they are going to build switches to connect from the elevated line along Grandview deep into the Cut.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, that map is off unless they are going to build switches to connect from the eelavted line along Grandview deep into the Cut.

Bear in mind, the Millennium Line tracks are elevated within the cut, so it's not completely crazy, just unexpected.

[ilikeredheads]

Skytrain network assumptions

waterfront to Lafarge...
so it's either an egregious error or they are just pulling BS out of their —.

2035 Peak
Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 4m (4,300 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 4m (4,300 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 2m (8,600 pphpd)


2050 Peak
Waterfront - YVR (1/2) - 4m (6,660 pphpd)
Waterfront - Brighouse (1/2) - 4m (6,660 pphpd)
Combined Canada - 2m (13,320 pphpd)

so by 2050, they plan to have all platforms increased to 50m, as well as expand all trains to 3 car trains by attaching a C-car in the middle. And that single C-car can increase capacity by more than 50% without increasing frequency???

maybe someone who's good at math can explain this.